[Isabella X]

No clue. Its possible that the current writers and previous rights flubbed up and intended to make the Vampire Lords their definition of Volkihar vampires but by all rights Volkihar vampires are already part of the game even without the dlc. So its possible that there are multiple ranks of Volkihar vampires and normal people have no idea about that?

And why in the name of god would you not use your vampire lord form when its availabe? It turns you into a freaking overpowered (lore-wise) monster. I can understand why its not implemented in game with normal npcs (harkon alone must have costed long lines of script to manage) but still if Volkihar vampires have been able to transform into Vampire lords from the start I'm sure it would have been mentioned in lore SOMEWHERE. Its kinda hard to miss a giant flying scary as hell looking man-bat hybrid.

This is why I am almost positive that somewhere someone either completely effed up the lore or vampire lords are a completely seperate strain of vampirism altogether.

Cause some vampires prolly don't wanna be a monster? It is all opinion-base.. Heck, I don't like being a Vampire Lord all the time.. I rarely use that form actually.. That is prolly why none of the Volkihar Vampires never used it.. They prefer not to.

[amhain]

No clue. Its possible that the current writers and previous rights flubbed up and intended to make the Vampire Lords their definition of Volkihar vampires but by all rights Volkihar vampires are already part of the game even without the dlc. So its possible that there are multiple ranks of Volkihar vampires and normal people have no idea about that?

And why in the name of god would you not use your vampire lord form when its availabe? It turns you into a freaking overpowered (lore-wise) monster. I can understand why its not implemented in game with normal npcs (harkon alone must have costed long lines of script to manage) but still if Volkihar vampires have been able to transform into Vampire lords from the start I'm sure it would have been mentioned in lore SOMEWHERE. Its kinda hard to miss a giant flying scary as hell looking man-bat hybrid.

This is why I am almost positive that somewhere someone either completely effed up the lore or vampire lords are a completely seperate strain of vampirism altogether.

Edit: Seriously by serena's and harkon's definition of "pure-blood" vampire Lamae Beolfag should be a vampire lord as well.

Yeah, we can agree that it's VERY safe to say that Bethesda bungled, even if we as a collective cannot agree on the specifics.

At the very least, we should have an option to ask Harkon or a similar NPC about Immortal Blood, only to have him laugh at it, and offer his take as to its origins/significance.

Please... someone tell me that's in-game somewhere.

[Chloe Mayo]

Funny how people think a game can be made so easily i would love to see your hand at making the simplest of dlc and see if it has no bugs

I don't have to make games to judge them. Also, gaming is an entertainment outlet just like music, some books, and movies. They should be held to the same standard, and not release half baked products. You can't use the excuse of low buget for them, because Skyrim clearly did not have a low buget. They shoved it out on 11-11-11 knowing it's condition. PS3 users got it the worst though.

This is all off topic though, so I won't continue to discuss it.

On topic, they do break lore by being copy/pasted versions of Oblivion's vampires.

[GabiiE Liiziiouz]

Again though, your theory makes no sense because it assumes that the devs went out of their way to purposefully implement a needlessly complex-out-the-ass story of cross-clan vampire politics we've never heard of before.

You are just saying that cause you are too blinded in your anger to even agree with others.. You are more one of those people that wants to be "Always Right" and will constantly argue with everyone until they submit and say "Fine, you are right."

That is why my theory makes no sense to you.

[sam]

Please... someone tell me that's in-game somewhere.

I could always go get the book and see if I can get an opinion from Serana.. She seem have tons of stuff to say.

[Olga Xx]

I could always go get the book and see if I can get an opinion from Serana.. She seem have tons of stuff to say.

Do it! DO IT NAO!!

[Quick draw II]

Cause some vampires prolly don't wanna be a monster? It is all opinion-base.. Heck, I don't like being a Vampire Lord all the time.. I rarely use that form actually.. That is prolly why none of the Volkihar Vampires never used it.. They prefer not to.

Sure I can understand some of the Volkihar vampires not wanting to transform but ALL of them?
Thats the same as claiming all Werewolves refuse to transform because they don't like the transformation either but that definitely isn't the case.
Story-wise some npcs will only use transformations defensively but even then the chances of no one ever having seen a vampire lord at all is slim to none (considering the number of vampires out there) unless there is a specific reason for their small number.

[NAkeshIa BENNETT]

Very well, I relent that your narrative makes some ammount of sense, though I still strongly disagree with the way Bethesda implemented them. Just because we, the fans, can come up with a logical way for the Volkihar to exist in-game as they do doesn't excuse Bethesda from explaining it.

I still would have preferred the Volkihar to have been left out of the game until such a time as Bethesda had the ability to implement them as we saw them in Immortal Blood.




So... you agree with me? I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're trying to tell me, other than the fact that you have a differing opinion. You've actually made that quite clear throughout this entire thread.

lol Yea, I have been a pain in the behind this thread haven't I?

I agree with you, as I agreed with a lot of whats in this thread.

I just have a differing opinion on it too.

I'm trying to say, retcon is going to happen in a long running games. It happens in a lot of long running entertainment. More so with changing times, resources, and writers.

I agree the way it was retcon is bad, and was a mistake.

But, I understand where it is coming from. It's not hard to understand. But, people rather it be about Bethesda being lazy or screwing lore-fans over.

I'm upset just as you guys are, but I'm keeping a cooler head about it.

[remi lasisi]

lol Yea, I have been a pain in the behind this thread haven't I?

I agree with you, as I agreed with a lot of whats in this thread.

I just have a differing opinion on it too.

I'm trying to say, retcon is going to happen in a long running games. It happens in a lot of long running entertainment. More so with changing times, resources, and writers.

I agree the way it was retcon is bad, and was a mistake.

But, I understand where it is coming from. It's not hard to understand. But, people rather it be about Bethesda being lazy or screwing lore-fans over.

I'm upset just as you guys are, but I'm keeping a cooler head about it.

I have no problems with retcons, as long as they're handled in such a way as not to alienate the long term fans of the lore. Unfortunately, Bethesda bungled in that regard.

EDIT: Unless Jusey1 uncovers something in the game that we all have missed so far when he goes back and looks for an explanation.

[CArla HOlbert]

I'm just going to leave you be. Because, clearly, we have different views.

You have provided no evidence either. But, I'm not going to mess with a guy who wants to remains a victim and not think about the bigger picture. So peace on this.

I've provided evidence.

1) I've named resources the game has programmed into it already that could've been used to produce functionally sound Volkihar vampires, but weren't.
2) I've provided dev statements regarding the vampire lords and the Volkihar.
3) I've provided the only mentions of the name "Volkihar" within Skyrim/Dawnguard as a point of argument.


The conclusions I'm drawing use all of those. I argue it must be apathy or laziness because the resources are all there, but weren't used, they know about their lore regarding the Volkihar because they used the name in Skyrim and Dawnguard (therefore they couldn't've forgotten this lore as it all comes from Immortal Blood), and the devs have seen debates like this on the forums but failed to address the retcon.

As I've said, any half-decent writer would address a retcon and explain the why and how of it so it makes coherent sense. That Bethesda is blatantly ignoring the retcon and looking the other way? The only logical conclusion I can draw is that they couldn't be bothered to implement them (laziness or poor management) or didn't care to implement them (apathy and a desire to make Underworld rip-off vampires instead, even if it means going back on their word).

YOU haven't offered a logical theory or any evidence, and big surprise you don't want to discuss the subject anymore. Such is the way of the Skyrim forums...

[Naughty not Nice]

Sure I can understand some of the Volkihar vampires not wanting to transform but ALL of them?

I think this was a mistake that Beth did, actually. I think they forgot all about the Volkihar Vampires they added and the idea of them using the VL power never came to them.. Now we are mentioning it, there is a chance that Beth will update the Volkihar Vampires to do so at a high enough level, you know? I wouldn't really blame them either.. They already had plenty of stuff on their mind, and to do, in Dawnguard.

~Edit~

Hm.. Be expecting this in a patch or something if this ever becomes true.. If it is possible to patch Dawnguard or update it.

[Jeneene Hunte]

Sure I can understand some of the Volkihar vampires not wanting to transform but ALL of them?
Thats the same as claiming all Werewolves refuse to transform because they don't like the transformation either but that definitely isn't the case.
Story-wise some npcs will only use transformations defensively but even then the chances of no one ever having seen a vampire lord at all is slim to none (considering the number of vampires out there) unless there is a specific reason for their small number.

Cause you have to be a first/second generation to transform and being a first/second generation vampire is extremely rare in dawnaguard its stated that the vampires out in the wild are thin bloods so they cannot transform. Normally when people who see the VL(which is exteremly rare) they normally end up with a case called being dead so there is no one to spread tales about it plus the vampires of the castle are reclusive they don't really care about human affairs only vampire stuff that happens in the court.

[Francesca]

I don't have to make games to judge them. Also, gaming is an entertainment outlet just like music, some books, and movies. They should be held to the same standard, and not release half baked products. You can't use the excuse of low buget for them, because Skyrim clearly did not have a low buget. They shoved it out on 11-11-11 knowing it's condition. PS3 users got it the worst though.

This is all off topic though, so I won't continue to discuss it.

On topic, they do break lore by being copy/pasted versions of Oblivion's vampires.

Yes your right you dont have to make a game to judge it, but you cant go around assuming that the dev's decided to release a "haf ass baked" product just to displease you and start judging them just because you dont like it. And its really simple you see if you dont like for "X" reason then dont buy it and stop whining

[SexyPimpAss]

Cause you have to be a first/second generation to transform and in dawnaguard its stated that the vampires out in the wild are thin bloods so they cannot transform normally

Ah yes. I did forgot about this little piece of info. Thank you for reminding me.

[Juan Cerda]

I think this was a mistake that Beth did, actually. I think they forgot all about the Volkihar Vampires they added and the idea of them using the VL power never came to them.. Now we are mentioning it, there is a chance that Beth will update the Volkihar Vampires to do so at a high enough level, you know? I wouldn't really blame them either.. They already had plenty of stuff on their mind, and to do, in Dawnguard.

~Edit~

Hm.. Be expecting this in a patch or something if this ever becomes true.. If it is possible to patch Dawnguard or update it.

It's possible. Look at how much they've added with free patches already (mounted combat, anyone?).

[Laura-Lee Gerwing]

You are just saying that cause you are too blinded in your anger to even agree with others.. You are more one of those people that wants to be "Always Right" and will constantly argue with everyone until they submit and say "Fine, you are right."

That is why my theory makes no sense to you.

No, your theory makes no sense to me because it's needlessly complicated and Occam's [censored] Razor.

What is the likelihood that the devs discussed and made a concious decision to implement a retcon BUT also decided never to address or acknowledge that retcon and cover their tracks by providing the players with an explanation of why Immortal Blood is fiction? Very slim, as doing so is both very odd and risks annoying lore masters who fail to make sense of the retcon. It's sloppy and frustrates fans, and thus is not a wise decision. If they covered their tracks at least, THEN your theory makes sense, but they didn't...

What is the likelihood that the "Volkihar" we see in the base game are so similar to the Oblivion strain simply because the devs couldn't be bothered to make the vampires lore-friendly? Pretty high. I mean ffs, half the faction quests feel unfinished too.

The likelihood that my argument is correct is far more likely than yours. I can name a number of criteria for why your theory is very unlikely (two examples above) whereas you cannot name criteria for my theory. The fact that they failed to cover their tracks and give a good explanation as to why Immortal Blood is fiction? That wreaks of laziness, NOT of your theory of it being a concious decision. If they sat down and had the discussion and opted for this retcon, they'd probably prepare an explanation for it. If they didn't have such conversation, then they wouldn't prepare anything and just do whatever (Underworld vamps) and then there's no natrual transition.
The simplest theory is often times the correct theory. Yours is, by far, not the simplest. Dev apathy or laziness? Now THAT'S likely.

[Naomi Lastname]

Yes your right you dont have to make a game to judge it, but you cant go around assuming that the dev's decided to release a "haf ass baked" product just to displease you and start judging them just because you dont like it. And its really simple you see if you dont like for "X" reason then dont buy it and stop whining

I'm pretty sure you're strawmanning. No one is arguing that they released the vampires half-assed just to displease us. We're only stating the fact that they did do so displeases us.

[Anna Beattie]

I agree with Sacae whole heartedly. Honestly people make mistakes. Its possible that some devs in Bethesda protested the creation of vampire lords for the sake of lore but instead lost their argument because they couldn't provide an alternative that can sell.

Also people really need to grow up and realize a game series of this length of time is bound to have some issues with conflicting story. To claim outright negligency and malice from Bethesda game developers is completely outlandish. They love this game as much as we do.

[Laura-Jayne Lee]

No, your theory makes no sense to me because it's needlessly complicated and Occam's [censored] Razor.

What is the likelihood that the devs discussed and made a concious decision to implement a retcon BUT also decided never to address or acknowledge that retcon and cover their tracks by providing the players with an explanation of why Immortal Blood is fiction? Very slim, as doing so is both very odd and risks annoying lore masters who fail to make sense of the retcon.

What is the likelihood that the "Volkihar" we see in the base game are so similar to the Oblivion strain simply because the devs couldn't be bothered to make the vampires lore-friendly? Pretty high. I mean ffs, half the faction quests feel unfinished too.

The likelihood that my argument is correct is far more likely than yours. I can name a number of criteria for why your theory is very unlikely (two examples above) whereas you cannot name criteria for my theory.
The simplest theory is often times the correct theory. Yours is, by far, not the simplest. Dev apathy or laziness? Now THAT'S likely.

You are only repeating yourself now.. To me, all you are saying is: "Beth are lazy and I'm correct while you are wrong!".. That is really all I'm getting from you now.. So what is the point of this argument between you and me?

[darnell waddington]

YOU haven't offered a logical theory or any evidence, and big surprise you don't want to discuss the subject anymore. Such is the way of the Skyrim forums...

We clearly aren't going to change our minds. I've only been on the Skyrim forums for a week, glad I'm learning my way around here. =)

And I rather not deal with the aggression you clearly have to the company, and now towards me.

[Robert Jr]

Click the link in my signature to see my reaction to some of the stuff that has been said on this thread, mainly about how Bethesda was not being lazy, and how Immortal Blood is not a credible source.

[Susan Elizabeth]

I'm pretty sure you're strawmanning. No one is arguing that they released the vampires half-assed just to displease us. We're only stating the fact that they did do so displeases us.

How do you know they did so i want to see the proof before i agree that you are correct but so far i havent seen anything but arguments based of speculations and lets not forget the whining

[Nathan Barker]

I'm thinking about starting my own thread about this and listing all possible theories as well as answers for all possible questions that will be in the OP... Really, that is what is needed and could prolly help a lot more than randomly talking and saying stuff.

~Edit~

Actually, I'll start on that now since this one will be locked at any minute now.

[FITTAS]

You are only repeating yourself now.. To me, all you are saying is: "Beth are lazy and I'm correct while you are wrong!".. That is really all I'm getting from you now.. So what is the point of this argument between you and me?

It's a difference in outlook, and one that's clearly not going to be resolved. While LongKnife's explanation seems more likely to me, I'm willing to accept yours.... if it were coming from Bethesda, and not a fan on the forums.

Unfortunately, that is not the case, so I reserve the right to be upset about how Bethesda handled vampirism. (Though if you could look for an in-game explanation for Immortal Blood like you said you might, I'd be appreciative. It would be nice to know that my grievances are unfounded)

[Astargoth Rockin' Design]

You are only repeating yourself now.. To me, all you are saying is: "Beth are lazy and I'm correct while you are wrong!".. That is really all I'm getting from you now.. So what is the point of this argument between you and me?

Basically I've made a fully valid point, and instead of addressing it (which apparently you're incapable of doing, probably because it's a good point), you say "I'm through talking to you."
I don't understand this mindset. Why make excuses for Bethesda's shoddy work? It's right there in front of you. And yet you choose to believe a theory that Bethesda actually conciously implemented some super-over-the-top-complicated-all-sorts-of-professional conspiracy theory politics element to the vampire clans because they're SUCH great writers. They're playing chess and we're all playing checkers, that's why we can't understand the genius behind their design!

You're only blinding yourself. That's my point.
If your theory and your argument are truly as sound as you claim, you should be able to support them and back them up. But you can't. You say "I'm through talking to you now" the moment it gets tough. I keep pushing the argument because I wanna know why the HELL you would opt to give them an ENORMOUS benefit of the doubt when the answer is so obvious and right there in front of you.