[An Lor]

Unless you make games for a living, don't call out the developers on laziness.

There's millions of things that go into a game and just because it sounds cool and logical to you does not mean it was viable at the time. Maybe now, but in the vanilla game, probably not.

And no, developers aren't evil people that talk like that and decide to screw lore and fans.

Just because you don't like it, does not mean it was a evil plan against you.

They put a lot of work into the retcon vampires....not really laziness there. They decided to retcon it and did to a large amount.

And that's all I'm going to say. It's alright to discuss things, but don't go assume things like that.

Just IMO. lol

[natalie mccormick]

Unless you make games for a living, don't call out the developers on laziness.

There's millions of things that go into a game and just because it sounds cool and logical to you does not mean it was viable at the time. Maybe now, but in the vanilla game, probably not.

And no, developers aren't evil people that talk like that and decide to screw lore and fans.

Just because you don't like it, does not mean it was a evil plan against you.

They put a lot of work into the retcon vampires....not really laziness there. They decided to retcon it and did to a large amount.

And that's all I'm going to say. It's alright to discuss things, but don't go assume things like that.

Just IMO. lol

100% True

[Project]

As far as I remember, we don't know who actually writes Immortal Blood. Interestingly, it doesn't make sense for Morvarth to have written it, or any Cyrodiilic vampire, for that matter. As someone already pointed out, you don't write and circulate a book detailing your supernatural ability to remain hidden throughout society, when your existence depends on your discrete ability to do so. Bragging about it, and then lying and saying that ONLY your clan can do it, is completely absurd, self-defeating, and counterproductive.

So, if we assume that the writer of Immortal Blood was, in fact, not a member of the Cyrodiilic clan, then we have to ask ourselves a few questions. How did they get the Cyrodiilic Vampires correct to the tee, ESPECIALLY when their powers and their very nature would make them the most obscure clan in Tamriel? How did they manage to do that, and then get another clan's (whose powers are surprisingly overt) completely wrong?

Well.. The Main Volkihar Vampires were hiding in a castle away from everybody else.. And, in lore wise, Volkihar Vampires were prolly rare to find outside of the Castle's Island so my guess is, the guy prolly only found one while also finding a crap load of Cyrodiilic then just came up with theories.. This is if the book wasn't written by a Cyrodiilic Vampire. But I think it was cause at the ending of the book, it pretty much shown that the author was a Cyrodiilic Vampire..

That, or, the book is rly just some old fairy tale thing someone made up and got lucky about a few things. Which theory you think is most possible?

[Beat freak]

My theory is they had planned the idea in the first place or even was planning to make "Volkihar" a complete lie..

Wow.
You may very well be the most naive and/or delusional person in the world.
Hats off to you, sir.


Look, if that WERE the case, any half-decent writer would address this. They would insert a quest, a book, a person or some other detail that blatantly calls attention to the fact that the Volkihar aren't what we know from Immortal Blood. Perhaps a quest where we follow in the footsteps of a vampire hunter, picking up pages of his diary that trace his thoughts along the hunt, the final ones showing him coming to the realization that Immortal Blood was but a lie to lure vampire hunters into a trap, before we find ourselves doing battle with the now-vampire vampire hunter himself, having been deceived by a Skyrim vampire that's functionally the same as the Cyrodiilic strain.

But we don't see anything like this. Bethesda doesn't address the blatant differences AT ALL. As if they weren't even aware they'd made the mistake at all during development.

Again: Occam's mother[censored]ing Razor. That's your answer.

[TASTY TRACY]

Unless you make games for a living, don't call out the developers on laziness.

You can easily call them out on incompetence though.

[Prohibited]

They put a lot of work into the retcon vampires....not really laziness there. They decided to retcon it and did to a large amount.

No they didn't. See my last post. Any half-decent writer would've addressed the retcon and explained WHY we see this difference. Bethesda failed to address it at all, which simply suggests they forgot their own lore, or chose to scrap it entirely BUT couldn't be assed to cover their own tracks in the process.

That's either ignorance/negligence, or blatant laziness/apathy.

[Alberto Aguilera]

You can easily call them out on incompetence though.

Why is this?

[Da Missz]

My theory is they had planned the idea in the first place or even was planning to make "Volkihar" a complete lie.. My best bet is the only reason why we even have Volkihar vampires is cause of the fanbase wanted them to be in Skyrim.. That could explain why we could only become a Cyrodiilic Vampire in Skyrim and how the vampires that were named 'Volkihar Vampire' were also being Cyrodiilic.. Cause their original plans was just to make Cyrodiilic, or normal, vampires in Skyrim then the fanbase said something so they decided to add a high level vampire named after the Volkihar... Now, cause of more complainers, they finally added lore and actually decided to say "Hey! Why don't we actually make some sort of special Volkihar Vampire Base and allow the player to join them and maybe get something special, other then common stuff? You know, like we did with Quarra, Berne, and Aundae clans."

While this explaination makes sense, it just shows that Bethesda added them as a knee-jerk reaction and had to do damage control. Myself and others who wanted the Volkihar in Skyrim would have been happier waiting for a DLC to include them than simply having them tagged on as an afterthought.

That is my theory and prolly is the one that makes sense.. Yes, Beth was lazy at one point but they proved that they are willing to actually do something and that what they did. They added the Volkihar Vampire Lord and allowed the players to join them and become one, which is what we needed to gain official lore about them.

Unfortunately, their initial laziness was pretty damaging. Because of the way Immortal Blood was written, the only logical conclusion is that it was written to offer fans some insight as to the lore of Skyrim's vampires (see my points in my previous response to you). Because they added them in the tacked-on fashion that they did, it upset fans even more, and so they worked to appease them with Dawnguard. Even Dawnguard, however, doesn't fix MOST of the problems caused by the initial mistake.

[Albert Wesker]

No they didn't. See my last post. Any half-decent writer would've addressed the retcon and explained WHY we see this difference. Bethesda failed to address it at all, which simply suggests they forgot their own lore, or chose to scrap it entirely BUT couldn't be assed to cover their own tracks in the process.

That's either ignorance/negligence, or blatant laziness/apathy.

You do know how big Skyrim is right? And Oblivion. And any elder scrolls game.

And all this is based off of one book. One freaking book.

To go through the work and resources to make a quest or reference, while making all the changes to vampires (one part of a huge game). It's viable that they didn't. One book does not equal enough to do that much resource.

They made a mistake, but they didn't do it with the ill-intent or laziness you speak of.

[Oyuki Manson Lavey]

Well.. The Main Volkihar Vampires were hiding in a castle away from everybody else.. And, in lore wise, Volkihar Vampires were prolly rare to find outside of the Castle's Island so my guess is, the guy prolly only found one while also finding a crap load of Cyrodiilic then just came up with theories.. This is if the book wasn't written by a Cyrodiilic Vampire. But I think it was cause at the ending of the book, it pretty much shown that the author was a Cyrodiilic Vampire..

That, or, the book is rly just some old fairy tale thing someone made up and got lucky about a few things. Which theory you think is most possible?

All this is highly speculatory, and I find a few things very hard to swallow. Why would the Cyrodiilic vampires be easier to find than the Volkihar, when the Cyrodiilic clan is the clan with the ability to hide from potential hunters?

[Rodney C]

Isn't it possible that the Vampire Lord strain of vampires is a completely different string of vampires only tied together by Molag?
By all definition Vampire Lord vampires AREN'T Volkihar vampires because Volkihar vampires are already present in Skyrim before the dawnguard dlc. They spawn as uber strong vamps in dungeons are are a pain in the butt to kill at higher difficulties.
My biggest issue with vampire lords though is that technically aren't all vampires either pure vampires or direct decendants of Lamae Beolfag the original vampire?
Sure some of the vampire covens have since been altered by Vile and possibly meddled with by Vermina but by all rights shouldn't all vampires be vampire lords then?

Edit: The whole idea of vampire lords doesn't fit with my understanding of the lore in game and is confusing me -___-

[lilmissparty]

Wow.
You may very well be the most naive and/or delusional person in the world.
Hats off to you, sir.


Look, if that WERE the case, any half-decent writer would address this. They would insert a quest, a book, a person or some other detail that blatantly calls attention to the fact that the Volkihar aren't what we know from Immortal Blood. Perhaps a quest where we follow in the footsteps of a vampire hunter, picking up pages of his diary that trace his thoughts along the hunt, the final ones showing him coming to the realization that Immortal Blood was but a lie to lure vampire hunters into a trap, before we find ourselves doing battle with the now-vampire vampire hunter himself, having been deceived by a Skyrim vampire that's functionally the same as the Cyrodiilic strain.

But we don't see anything like this. Bethesda doesn't address the blatant differences AT ALL. As if they weren't even aware they'd made the mistake at all during development.

Again: Occam's mother[censored]ing Razor. That's your answer.

If you are going to so stubborn then go right ahead but I have my own theory that actually makes some sense. Your theory is way too common and way too annoying.. And that theory is basicly "Beth was just purely lazy and just wanted profit.". I can't really say much more now since all you've been doing is repeat the same annoying stuff that I truly don't care for...

As for your quest idea, why? It should be common sense to see that "Immortal Blood" is most likely mostly lies since it is all about a vampire promoting his own kind while demoting another... Also, the fact that you shouldn't believe in every book you read.. That kinda is common sense. I guess some has it and some don't.

[Jessica Raven]

You do know how big Skyrim is right? And Oblivion. And any elder scrolls game.

And all this is based off of one book. One freaking book.

To go through the work and resources to make a quest or reference, while making all the changes to vampires (one part of a huge game). It's viable that they didn't. One book does not equal enough to do that much resource.

They made a mistake, but they didn't do it with the ill-intent or laziness you speak of.

A lot of the established lore is only mentioned in one or two in-game books. Why would Bethesda write lots of books about the exact same thing? It's not really practical.

Isn't it possible that the Vampire Lord strain of vampires is a completely different string of vampires only tied together by Molag?
By all definition Vampire Lord vampires AREN'T Volkihar vampires because Volkihar vampires are already present in Skyrim before the dawnguard dlc. They spawn as uber strong vamps in dungeons are are a pain in the butt to kill at higher difficulties.
My biggest issue with vampire lords though is that technically aren't all vampires either pure vampires or direct decendants of Lamae Beolfag the original vampire?
Sure some of the vampire covens have since been altered by Vile and possibly meddled with by Vermina but by all rights shouldn't all vampires be vampire lords then?

Edit: The whole idea of vampire lords doesn't fit with my understanding of the lore in game and is confusing me -___-

If that's true, and Dawnguard vampires aren't Volkihar, then Beth is seriously just messing with us by having them dwell in "Castle Volkihar." Why would they intentionally try to confuse us?

[Rhysa Hughes]

A lot of the established lore is only mentioned in one or two in-game books. Why would Bethesda write lots of books about the exact same thing? It's not really practical.

Long running games...different writers going through different hands on different deadlines with different resources.

Long running games = retcon.

[Nadia Nad]

Isn't it possible that the Vampire Lord strain of vampires is a completely different string of vampires only tied together by Molag?
By all definition Vampire Lord vampires AREN'T Volkihar vampires because Volkihar vampires are already present in Skyrim before the dawnguard dlc. They spawn as uber strong vamps in dungeons are are a pain in the butt to kill at higher difficulties.
My biggest issue with vampire lords though is that technically aren't all vampires either pure vampires or direct decendants of Lamae Beolfag the original vampire?
Sure some of the vampire covens have since been altered by Vile and possibly meddled with by Vermina but by all rights shouldn't all vampires be vampire lords then?

Edit: The whole idea of vampire lords doesn't fit with my understanding of the lore in game and is confusing me -___-

From what I've seen, the Vampire Lord is a Volkihar thing but not all Volkihar Vampires will use since that can cause problems in itself.

[Rinceoir]

All this is highly speculatory, and I find a few things very hard to swallow. Why would the Cyrodiilic vampires be easier to find than the Volkihar, when the Cyrodiilic clan is the clan with the ability to hide from potential hunters?

Cause they hadn't fed on someone in a long time.. Why would they be hiding in caves?

[jason worrell]

You do know how big Skyrim is right? And Oblivion. And any elder scrolls game.

And all this is based off of one book. One freaking book.

To go through the work and resources to make a quest or reference, while making all the changes to vampires (one part of a huge game). It's viable that they didn't. One book does not equal enough to do that much resource.

They made a mistake, but they didn't do it with the ill-intent or laziness you speak of.

Again...

1) Size is not an excuse. If it's too much work for you to make a game this large without half-assing it (because lord knows the Volkihar aren't the only half-assed part of Skyrim), then don't make a game this large. Simple enough. Attempting to make one this large and failing is poor management.

2) ALL THE RESOURCES to make a lore-friendly, game-functioning Volkihar vampire are already in the game. They took the time to make several resources that would work for the Volkihar, but failed to utilize them. It's either ignorance or laziness.


3) You keep saying "they didn't do it with ill-intent" but you provide no evidence. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they went "mwahahahaha let's destroy our own lore, cuz we're evil!!" But did they forget their own lore? Were they too lazy to care for their own lore? I've provided evidence that suggests yes, yes they were. You haven't provided any evidence that says otherwise.
Because there isn't any. Bethesda hasn't addressed the issue at all, as if they don't even realize there is an issue or simply don't care about the Volkihar lore. It's ignorance (unlikely as they remembered the name Volkihar when naming the castle), laziness (possible, I mean the vampires we got were copy-pasted Oblivion ones with Frost resistance) or apathy/they didn't care. (very likely, I mean they didn't even write up a "why" excuse for why the Volkihar aren't as previously described)

[YO MAma]

Why is this?

1. Game being very buggy upon release (being a large game doesn't justify it)
2. Very poor game design in some aspects (magic and vampires are two)
3. DLC being buggy, albeit not as buggy, upon release
4. Breaking things consistently with patches, and not fixing things that were said to have been fixed (ash piles)

There's four reasons, but I can probably list more if you wish.

[Valerie Marie]

Unfortunately, their initial laziness was pretty damaging. Because of the way Immortal Blood was written, the only logical conclusion is that it was written to offer fans some insight as to the lore of Skyrim's vampires (see my points in my previous response to you). Because they added them in the tacked-on fashion that they did, it upset fans even more, and so they worked to appease them with Dawnguard. Even Dawnguard, however, doesn't fix MOST of the problems caused by the initial mistake.

The book was written to teach the fans how the whole 'blending in' thing happened.. Everything else in it, which is the Volkihar, was originally just made up by the Cyrodiilic Vampire who wrote it.. Beth didn't add the book cause of the Volkihar, it was added cause of the 'blending in' cause they knew people would complain about it if they didn't had an answer.

So my theory still stand that the book was written by a common vampire who wanted promote his kind while also demoting another.

~Edit~

And that makes perfect sense to me.. Then again, I study politics and the sort.. So I'm use to seeing that crap happening all the time.

[Melanie Steinberg]

Cause they hadn't fed on someone in a long time.. Why would they be hiding in caves?

Very well, I relent that your narrative makes some ammount of sense, though I still strongly disagree with the way Bethesda implemented them. Just because we, the fans, can come up with a logical way for the Volkihar to exist in-game as they do doesn't excuse Bethesda from explaining it.

I still would have preferred the Volkihar to have been left out of the game until such a time as Bethesda had the ability to implement them as we saw them in Immortal Blood.

Long running games...different writers going through different hands on different deadlines with different resources.

Long running games = retcon.

So... you agree with me? I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're trying to tell me, other than the fact that you have a differing opinion. You've actually made that quite clear throughout this entire thread.

[Philip Lyon]

1. Game being very buggy upon release (being a large game doesn't justify it)
2. Very poor game design in some aspects (magic and vampires are two)
3. DLC being buggy, albeit not as buggy, upon release
4. Breaking things consistently with patches, and not fixing things that were said to have been fixed (ash piles)

There's four reasons, but I can probably list more if you wish.

Funny how people think a game can be made so easily i would love to see your hand at making the simplest of dlc and see if it has no bugs. Because God know how much fun they have making you angry.

[Ladymorphine]

If that's true, and Dawnguard vampires aren't Volkihar, then Beth is seriously just messing with us by having them dwell in "Castle Volkihar." Why would they intentionally try to confuse us?

From what I've seen, the Vampire Lord is a Volkihar thing but not all Volkihar Vampires will use since that can cause problems in itself.

No clue. Its possible that the current writers and previous rights flubbed up and intended to make the Vampire Lords their definition of Volkihar vampires but by all rights Volkihar vampires are already part of the game even without the dlc. So its possible that there are multiple ranks of Volkihar vampires and normal people have no idea about that?

And why in the name of god would you not use your vampire lord form when its availabe? It turns you into a freaking overpowered (lore-wise) monster. I can understand why its not implemented in game with normal npcs (harkon alone must have costed long lines of script to manage) but still if Volkihar vampires have been able to transform into Vampire lords from the start I'm sure it would have been mentioned in lore SOMEWHERE. Its kinda hard to miss a giant flying scary as hell looking man-bat hybrid.

This is why I am almost positive that somewhere someone either completely effed up the lore or vampire lords are a completely seperate strain of vampirism altogether.

Edit: Seriously by serena's and harkon's definition of "pure-blood" vampire Lamae Beolfag should be a vampire lord as well.

[Lewis Morel]

Very well, I relent that your narrative makes some ammount of sense, though I still strongly disagree with the way Bethesda implemented them. Just because we, the fans, can come up with a logical way for the Volkihar to exist in-game as they do doesn't excuse Bethesda from explaining it.

I still would have preferred the Volkihar to have been left out of the game until such a time as Bethesda had the ability to implement them as we saw them in Immortal Blood.

I would rather have them did what they did with Dawnguard but also adding in some sort dialogue, or something, when you give the book to Serana or another Volkihar... Something small that they didn't add, I guess.. Unless they did and no one tried it yet.

[Brentleah Jeffs]

The book was written to teach the fans how the whole 'blending in' thing happened.. Everything else in it, which is the Volkihar, was originally just made up by the Cyrodiilic Vampire who wrote it.. Beth didn't add the book cause of the Volkihar, it was added cause of the 'blending in' cause they knew people would complain about it if they didn't had an answer.

So my theory still stand that the book was written by a common vampire who wanted promote his kind while also demoting another.

~Edit~

And that makes perfect sense to me.. Then again, I study politics and the sort.. So I'm use to seeing that crap happening all the time.

Again though, your theory makes no sense because it assumes that the devs went out of their way to purposefully implement a needlessly complex-out-the-ass story of cross-clan vampire politics we've never heard of before.

Occam's.

Razor.

I cannot stress that argument enough here....

[Chloe :)]

Again...

1) Size is not an excuse. If it's too much work for you to make a game this large without half-assing it (because lord knows the Volkihar aren't the only half-assed part of Skyrim), then don't make a game this large. Simple enough. Attempting to make one this large and failing is poor management.

2) ALL THE RESOURCES to make a lore-friendly, game-functioning Volkihar vampire are already in the game. They took the time to make several resources that would work for the Volkihar, but failed to utilize them. It's either ignorance or laziness.


3) You keep saying "they didn't do it with ill-intent" but you provide no evidence. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they went "mwahahahaha let's destroy our own lore, cuz we're evil!!" But did they forget their own lore? Were they too lazy to care for their own lore? I've provided evidence that suggests yes, yes they were. You haven't provided any evidence that says otherwise.
Because there isn't any. Bethesda hasn't addressed the issue at all, as if they don't even realize there is an issue or simply don't care about the Volkihar lore. It's ignorance (unlikely as they remembered the name Volkihar when naming the castle), laziness (possible, I mean the vampires we got were copy-pasted Oblivion ones with Frost resistance) or apathy/they didn't care. (very likely, I mean they didn't even write up a "why" excuse for why the Volkihar aren't as previously described)

I'm just going to leave you be. Because, clearly, we have different views.

You have provided no evidence either. But, I'm not going to mess with a guy who wants to remains a victim and not think about the bigger picture. So peace on this.