What's with people nor reading the OP? He said that Morrowind started the dumbing down. This was in no way a nostalgic love fest for Morrowind.

Read people.

It's an action game with RPG elements. Player skill trumps avatar skill. Exactly the opposite of what I expect from an RPG.

The following are my thoughts I posted in another thread. I am not addressing anyone in this thread when referring to "you" and that's just a leftover from the fact that my posts were responses, so please ignore those:

They are not these redundant "numbers and statistics" as you refer to them, they are actual gameplay mechanics which allow for a more meticulous fleshing out of your character. The gameworld responding to your status is not some inexplicably redundant number or statistic. The actual factions with actual substance making them feel like factions are not inexplicably redundant numbers or statistics. The scope of the world, the maturity with which it presents itself, the seasons, the holidays, the plot choices, the reputation of your character with a certain class or faction or region which in turn affect the opportunities and respect they present to you... these things are not inexplicably redundant numbers. The subtle and detailed, yet ignorable, backstory shaped by your choices within the character creation, the complexity and choices presented in the character creation system which allows for so many possibilities of character, the politics and faction conflicts and alliances... these are meaningful. One thing Daggerfall doesn't do is have a whole lot of wildlife for being a hunter, but that alone does not make role-playing in Skyrim anywhere near as valid as in Daggerfall. What can you do in Skyrim, just kill bears and sell their pelts? Wow, what role-playing. [/sarcasm]

No, Skyrim offers no recognition, no reaction, and no tools to do much beyond decide you want to wear heavy armor and swing swords. The factions are pure garbage... irrelevant, pointless garbage Bethesda clearly tossed in at the last second. If you're content with simply hunting down wild things and selling their hides in Skyrim, so be it, but in regards to nearly anything else... to trying to role-play a scholar, a knight of the scarab, a noble pawn, an assassin, a militant warrior-priest of Akatosh, friend of the necromancers, subject of the royal court of Sentinel, etc., Skyrim cannot compete. These "numbers and statistics" you've labeled as pointless with absolutely no explanation other than stating the obvious of being able to kill wild things and sell their hides in Skyrim make the world more believable, play on variations of character design, and make any specific playstyle more palpable, more tangible, and more respected or reviled within the gameworld. Skyrim is shallow. I'm not sure who thought this trend of arithmophobia provided an adequate job of striking down the old and promoting the new or was a valid response, but it's not.

Cut out the numbers and statistics which provide the necessary backbone for reputation... Skyrim has no reputation, and that's a good thing? Cut out the numbers and statistics forming the backbone of a holiday and season system... Skyrim has none and nothing to replace it, and that's a good thing? Cut out the numbers and statistics of factions and prerequisites/quota for position within that faction... we have barely any factions and those we do have are incredibly shallow and tacked on in Skyrim, and that's a good thing? Cut out the numbers and statistics behind the system of spell customization... Skyrim has no spell customization, and that's a good thing? You've not explained anything and your justification for... shallowness is inept at conveying any proper justification at all. In essence, you've said nothing other than "numbers bad, Skyrim has fewer, Skyrim good". You say this makes Skyrim feel more real, inexplicably, but fail to realize at just how "real", or rather unreal, Skyrim really is because it has no holidays, no reputations, no factions, no scope/size, no political machinations, little depth and customization to make one feel a part of the gameworld, etc. The only things more "real" about Skyrim are the graphics and the combat. Without the numbers and statistics apologists so strongly and unjustifiably seem to fear, there would be nothing to separate TES from another sandbox game such as Red Dead Redemption or Just Cause 2... perhaps code for the game itself wouldn't exist. You need "numbers and statistics" in an RPG.

Well, I think Skyrim is an RPG, just not much of one when compared to its predecessors. It's really not that narrow of a definition I have. I love JRPGs (Dragon Quest VIII is my favorite) , I love Baldur's Gate, I love TES. Within the context of TES series, Skyrim is exceedingly simple and lacking many of the role-playing mechanics of its predecessors. I do consider it an RPG, just a very lacking, very shallow one. JRPGs get away with what they do because they often, as is expected of the sub-genre, have brilliant storytelling and characterization. Baldur's Gate and KotOR get off on the same line, but sacrifice a bit of story for a bit more choice. TES has traditionally sacrificed nearly all characterization and brilliant storytelling for freedom and choice, yet I feel Skyrim is severely lacking both. As you mentioned, the questline stories are quite weak. At the same time, there also isn't much actually going on with factions, their influence, and any incentive to actually join them. This is the problem I find. My definition of an RPG of some sort involves some form of character progression, be it via story, characterization, or customization with progressing stats being a given below those three. Skyrim has basic stat progression and creation tools, so yes, one can choose their race and choose what type of "class", if you will, they wish to be and so I consider it an RPG, but the RPG mechanics practically end right there.

Skyrim lacks any meaningful characterization progression, it lacks story, it lacks worldly progression, and it lacks much of the customization aspect. The customization aspect, particularly, was the saving grace done so well by, say, Daggerfall that propels it to the forefront of a good WRPG, in my opinion. Skyrim... has a lot of dungeon-diving and simplistic progression mechanics, but very little substance or meaning to its "factions" (not sure how an incredibly short, poorly explained questline constitutes a faction), very little to its overarching plot, very little quest choice, little customization beyond the basic skill/perk choosing and progression mechanics (basically, Skyrim's progression mechanics are no more advanced than Dead Island's perk-based system and that's not a whole lot of depth), and a generally lacking feeling. It lacks choice and consequence and it lacks progression or realization of the world and its inhabitants to your actions. It's an RPG, but seeing as it doesn't really do much in excelling in actual RPG mechanics, it's a very bare one at that. Basically, no matter what you do in Skyrim, nobody and nothing around you will take notice and nothing changes other than a new dragon shout to use, a shiny new sword, and a little more gold in your pocket. Bethesda have officially reverted to the simplistic-level RPG mechanics of TES I: Arena and that's what the series' growth and then fall as an RPG series over the course of 17 years has left us... back at little more than a hack-and-slash dungeon crawler with RPG progression. Of course, other aspects of Skyrim are far improved over those of Arena, but as an RPG, Skyrim is shockingly quite lacking. It certainly isn't the "ultimate open-ended fantasy RPG" as described by a certain Bethesda employee. At this point, all Bethesda needs to do is cut out the perks and finish merging the armor pieces and voila, TES VI is just a sandbox dungeon crawler.

Realy, well thats odd, because I swear I was just roleplaying earlier when I was playing his game.

I dont care how "streamlined" this game is, its still an RPG.

Come back and talk when they get rid of the ability for you to make a character, decide what skills you use, and manipulate objects in the world(ie,picking up objects, placing them in your home, ect.

Then Ill take your stance that this is just a "blined action game".

Played any PnP?
If the DM is bad you can still RP but you need effort and your RP is more or less bland.
If the DM is good you suddenly RP without knowing it and get totally absorbed in the story/game.

For me it's definitely a bad DM case here.

THIS IS NOT AN ACTION GAME!!!11!!!!

Sorry, the button got stuck, been eating to much candy and drinking to many Monsters next to the keyboard lately, but I digress. I believe this to be, not only an RPG, but an RPG with game mechanics that I believe will be copied soon.

...you do realize alot of the games "mechanics" has been done before ( few years back ) and quite frankly better with more depth and immersion right in previous games.

Thank you asulkan

It's sad what's happened to this series.

Maybe it is high time to quit this series?

No matter what much you rant or curse at Bethesda, commercial success of skyrim and the accolades of the "sheep" crowd means that TES "is ruined forever" and will never meet your definition of an RPG.

Your time can be much better spend on scouring the net for indie games which fall more neatly into your definition of an RPG instead of attempting to "convince" the members of this forum on how bad Skyrim is. If they enjoy it, no amount of "convincing" will change their mind. If they hate it, they have already left for other games. You will gain no new converts to your cause.

Learn to let go.

Action game cop out at its finest. GUTTED so much from Daggerfall and onward.

Go back to the drawing board next time and stop gutting features and dumbing down.

Very sad.