Indeed. Be careful of what you ciritisize

Skyrim is poorly blanced an has many questionable design decisions. Just like any other Bethesda game Also it's less of a chore to play, which translated to internet equals "dumbed down"

Of course i've only played Fallout 3 and Oblivion from Bethesda's games (in that order), and based on those two i expected a glorified dungeon crawler, and that's exactly what i got I'll get the "RPG" from mods, or a different developer

They've removed the "magic" of this series.

At least until that series goes the way of the current trend - dumbed down. And it'll be the same thing all over again - go find another series.

We can all thank Microsoft, since they made the Xbox.

Uldred

Someone hasn't been to Blackreach.

One area doesn't make up for all of the gutting.

This is the best TES game in series imo, id say its a little easy here and there, but you can put of difficulty for that, and this game is a rpg ment to get you into the story and have fun take in the scenery and stuff, not a hard core crazy puzzle game with unbeatable quests and getting lost and putting the game down never to play it again.

It's better than Oblivion (which really isin't hard, what a chore that game was), worse than Morrowind (which IS hard to top). While the simplification did some good (who used classes anyway?), it also did some bad (y u no like real Birthsigns anymore Beth? And why no attributes?). It's basically an improved Oblivion, which is fine and all if you want a better action-adventure game but is not a good direction if you want a serious RPG where choice actually matters. On the one hand, Bethesda proclaims freedom, but on the other hand the game is very hand-holding, what with the Fast-Travel and quest marker frindly quests, unability to make choices in most cases, level scaling, immortal NPCs, ect.


While it is indeed a very cool and well-designed area, it hasen't got much to do with the game's mechanics.

Great post. I agree completely. If you approach Skyrim with a child-like sense of wonder, the game is amazing. It has so much food for your imagination, and none of it is dumb in the slightest. In fact, the game is very bright. I just love meeting new NPCs and hearing their little stories, even if they don't send me on quests. The game has so many little details to enjoy, I feel a lot of them get overlooked and not many people really absorb it for everything it's worth. If you do that, there's no way in the world you would think Skyrim is anything less than amazing.

This can VERY easily be said of game developers as well.

Uldred

You can play with words all you want, ''Dumbed down'' means ''Simplified'', and at the end of the day, that describes Skyrim. Telling yourself otherwise in some grand fan-boyish gesture doesn't make it any less true.

As for me, this is no longuer a RPG. Its a shallow exploration simulator with a barebone gameplay. A RPG focuses on storyline and character progression, and both of those aspects were so oversimplified/underworked in Skyrim that they might as well not be in the game.

Most games try to aim to do better then its predecessor by by bringing new/more things to the table. Skyrim did better then previous TES for graphics, but otherwise, they did they opposite: they took a huge step back by removing a lot of features and simplifying what was left, with absolutely nothing innovative to show for it.

Couldn't agree more. This game feels more like a re-skinned Fallout NV then it does a game belonging to the TES series. No spell making, half the skill trees are worthless/irrelevant, npcs don't react to your status "Example: Tonilia - "Welcome to the cozy little family. I'm the lookout for the guild, I watch Delvin's back" Oh really? I didn't realize that, even though we have met 1000000 times before & I am the F**king guild master for divines sake....

Despite what Bethesda claims, I truly believe several members of the Fallout team, if not the entire team created Skyrim. So much for intellectually engrossing RPG's. If people find Skyrim intellectually challenging or even remotely engaging well may the 9 divines have mercy on them.

They did say Skyrim was the "follow-up" to Oblivion AND Fallout. That right there speaks volumes.

Uldred

P.S.: If I can locate the quote, I'll edit it in.

Well, the biggest dumb-down in the series was Daggerfall to Morrowind and people still think, that MW is the best game in the series.
to people, that say otherwise:
34 skills --> 27 skills
No way to wear armor in multiple ways.
And countless others.

Counter my point by throwing another one of those words out? "Fanboyish"? Really now?

I'm one of the people who say this isn't a fantastic game. I say it's a good game that has some great flaws, especially when looking back to previous installments or even just looking at the bugs. I also never mentioned another one of those words, "Simplified", you're really going out on a limb here, right? The game isn't streamlined, simplified, dumbed down, it's different. Some people can't handle it when developers decide to go in a different direction to capture their artistic ideals.

This thread is getting way too much attention, I even have a hard time dignifying all the hopeless nerd raging here with a response. The series is not spiralling out of control. It's just evolving. Games all across the board are going in this direction more and more. Deal with it. It's not going to change, because it's business and accessible games get more sales. If you can't handle that, just give up playing AAA titles right now.

That said, I still think Skyrim is better in this aspect then Oblivion. Replacing attributes with perks was a great step (which actually added complexity, whether you want to admit it or not) in the right direction. They should have left some form of spellmaking though, that's something people liked to dike around with and it really added something unique to the TES series.

Gamasutra- What about accessibility -- making Skyrim a game that's inviting to people who might not play RPGs as much, and also the hardcoe people who have been playing The Elder Scrolls since the beginning?

Todd Howard - Honestly, it's not something that we think about a lot, in that we've found that we're getting a pretty big audience making a game that we want to make. We want to make it for whoever it is -- even if you've played Elder Scrolls before, you haven't played this one, so you don't understand what a skill does yet.

... We want to remove confusion, that's what I'd say. As opposed to making it more accessible, we'd like to remove confusion for anyone who's playing. What we're trying to do now is lead you into it more...

So, they don't call it dumbed-down, they call it "less confusing".

"lead you into it" instead of letting us find our way....

Uldred

They sold out to the casuals at an alarming rate.

I throw the term "fanboyish" because to me that describes best what you are doing right now: trying to defend a game and its creator by playing with words and ignoring/changing the facts. Sorry if that somehow hurts your feelings, I did not mean it as a personnal attack but rather as an adjective to describe the radically defensive tone of the post I quoted.
------------
That being said...

If a game takes what its predecessor has done and removes features, then tries to find ways to make what is left more simple/streamlined... well I dont know what lala-land you live in, but in the real world, thats called simplifying something.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/simplify

So, yes, skyrim is different... because its a simplified version of its predecessors. You would have a point (''its just different!") if they actually brought novelties to the table or changed the formula, but they didn't. They took their old games, removed features, and repackaged it in shiny new graphics.

Now, can we stop arguing semantics?

i dont want this series altered from its current path at all.

i love skyrim and its, in my eyes, far superior to any game bethesda have created to date.

some people would love to bomb this game back to the stoneage and remove speech and all the other stuff. thats just them being mired in the past, and im surprised they dont fall flat on their face they are looking back so much.

Agreed. I'm no rabid fan, but personally think this game is the best yet.

Yes ther are a lot of features and gameplay mechanics that still need to be improved upon for increased depth, complexity and consequentially immersion (yes, the dreaded word! ). Things like the restricted combat mechanics, npc ai and dialogue, to name two things... But this is stuff to be iterated on with each new game, and the current state is better than all that has gone before.

They've still got some way to go with spending less time in menus and more time in character and actually interacting within the game world, but it's not bad.

But yes, dumbing down in terms of reducing features is one thing, and can be a problem. Streamlining and simplifying on the other hand, to avoid unnecessary faffing about and more time actually playing the game is a good thing.

With all the RL world issues at the moment, how many people really want to spend excessive time number crunching/ organising/ configuring and testing settings and so on, for an entertainment experience. It's no fun when you've got to concentrate as if it were a second (voluntary) job. No, you just want to play the game and let your mind be transported to a wonderful fictional world. Well I do at least...

When I see "far superior to any game bethesda have created to date" and "they want to remove speech and all the other stuff!" in the same sentence, it means one of two things:

1) You have never actually played previous Bethesda games and are just trying to look like you know something about it...
2) You have never actually read any of the threads on this forum and just put words in people's mouth to facilitate your argumentation...

So, which one is it? Because not only was speech already present in previous games, this thread (and most like it) actually would like it to see more of it, and of "all the other stuff", not less.

Sure. Lets just hope they make Morrowind 2, yes? I hope they never backtrack to an older system. Problem is they need to test these new systems. As I see it, only a small section of the people who own Skyrim actually label it as "Dumbed down", or "Simplified".

They will learn what works, and what doesn't from this game and take whatever they find to the next game. Hell, they might even let you view some numbers! Wouldn't that be fantastic? I don't defend Bethesda, I detest their generic and bland questlines in this game, the removal of magic creation, and SOME of the skill changes. Do I call it dumbed down, though? No, because it's not dumbed down. Semantics are important, words have stigma and those two are prime examples.

Oh my....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSWefFiyjJY

And if this bothered you, then I'm sure you like where the game is currently at. With 18 skills, no attributes, and hardly anything that can be done in multiple ways.

The "evolving" you're talking about is an out-of-control move towards simplification. If gamesas want their games to remain alive for years on end because the modders then perhaps they should start considering who those modders are. Do you think they're the casuals with no attention to detail whatsoever, which is the group Skyrim is designed for, or the hard-core nerds, which would be the group complaining in this very topic?

And topics such as this one is a natural consequence of gamesas telling it's former target segment to go jump off a bridge. Deal with it.

I don't think I'll ever get to understand this line of thinking. The whole "less is more" approach makes as much sense as the idea that more debt makes you more wealthy, which is a misconception that the current financial crisis is finally curing people for. By this reasoning, you get the most possible complexity in a game with no attributes at all, no stats at all, where you simply choose perks every now and again.

Oh, and Skyrim isn't complex at all. If you disagree then PLEASE show where the complexity is, instead of simply insisting it is there. If you want a lethal archer, put perks in archery, smithing, and maybe conjuration, illusion, enchant, or stealth. If you want a strong warrior, I'd personally go 1H + block + smithing + enchant + armor skill. If you want a mage then focus on conjuration and illusion. If you want a sneakster then focus on sneak and a weapon skill (and please leave lockpick and speech alone and unperked). How is all this in any way the least bit complex?

Bethesda removed Spellmaking, Attributes, etc., not players. What are they going to drop next in the name of dumbing-down? I mean, making it "less confusing".

Uldred