Another difference in fast traveling and kill cams is that fast traveling is easy to work around. You just ignore it. You can't ignore kill-cams, they snatch you out of the game and force you to watch a mini-movie, killing immersion and ruining flow.

yes, i am severely dissappointed with the kill cams. for things not ps3-specific it is probably #2 gameplay issue right behind the lack of hotkeys.

as for stamping our feet, holding our breath, hyperventilating etc about it; I don't think anyone is, but there are thousands of threads on this forum that are all about what us paying customers would like improved, so why is asking for kill-cam toggle such an issue?

They won't stop with these threads, which is entirely the problem.

If toggles are added, then the whiners like earthlinger will see this as a precedent that their incessant whining and crying paid off. And then instead of threads about toggles for killcams, it will be threads [censored]ing about something else.

"Dragons are nothing more than a gimmick, I want a toggle to turn them off! If you like dragons, me having the option to turn them off DOESN'T HURT YOU!!!!11"

I don't mind them, I prefer seeing them from first person though.

And in all honesty, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for a toggle.

"Snatch you out of the game and force you to watch a mini-movie" - talk about an over-reaction.

"I'm not insisting that anyone play any way. That's actually Bethesda doing that, by designing the game a particular way because that was their vision. Now, you may not like the killcams, and you may wish for a toggle, and that is perfectly valid, but you are by no means entitled to one, just the same way that I am by no means entitled to more killcams. Bethesda designed the game a certain way, for a certain reason, and I doubt a toggle is coming anytime soon because if you actually look at killcams and how they function, it is more complicated than just turning them on or off. Killcams actually have an impact (albeit minor) on the balance of the game. I have paid a lot of attention to killcams when they do occur in my game, and often times they trigger when a regular attack would not have resulted in a kill.

The point about "if we make a toggle for killcams, then what's next on the list of toggles?" is both a flawed and a valid argument. It is flawed in the fact that slippery slope arguments are typically never as extreme as they are made out to be. Example? My own argument about a toggle for dragons.

However, they are valid in the sense that this was a game design choice, and for whatever reason, Bethesda deemed it as non optional. You use the argument that what is fun for some is not fun for others. And therein lies the "what's next?" argument, because no game, ever, is going to please every person. There is always going to be something about a game that isn't satisfactory to someone. There are things in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim, all 3, that I would like to see changed, or improved upon. But at some point, you just have to accept the game for what it is and either deal with it, or move on to a game that is more entertaining for you.

If killcams are as bad as these threads make them out to be, then you are obviously not enjoying the game, so perhaps you should move on.

If you can enjoy the game in spite of killcams, and they are nothing more than a minor annoyance, then they don't warrant the reaction and demands that come from threads like these.

You comment about "snatching" you out of the game to watch a "mini-movie" is obvious exaggeration. Showcasing a particular action in 3rd person for all of 1-3 seconds is hardly "snatching" you out of the game - it is part of the game, whether you like it or not. A mini-movie? I didn't realize that 1-3 seconds of an action that is already occurring in the game world constituted a "movie"...

You can ask for changes to something all you like, and it's perfectly valid to do so. But making demands, saying that something "must" happen, hurling insults towards others, and backing your point with blatant over exaggeration is not the way to go about doing so.

As far as the inevitable "paying customer" argument goes - you paid $60 for a product, and you received that product. The company is under no obligation to change that product to cater to your demands. You paid for a product that included killcams. You are not entitled to, Bethesda is not obligated to, change that product to allow you to remove that feature of the product. You are entitled to ask for the change, and if Bethesda feels that the change is warranted, they will do as such, but you are not entitled to the change, and Bethesda is not obligated to make that change. Acting as such does not further your cause.

When you want your mother to buy you a candy bar from the grocery store, do you ask her politely, and behave yourself? Or do you throw a temper tantrum in the store, knocking over every items off the shelf as you walk down the isle until she caves?

Threads like this showcase the latter."


I do not demand. I ask. When asking, and describing why I want it, I describe how it feels to me. I bought a game to play, not a movie--I wish to do the kills myself, because to me, that is a game. You are exagerating when you describe everyone wanting kill cams to be demanding or throwing temper tantrums. I do not go into threads asking for more kill cams and tell them they are spoiled for wanting more. I do not go into threads that are talking about their favorite kill cams and tell them they couldn't possibly be that great. Yet you, and several others, feel free to come into a thread asking for kill cams and insult us. And yes, I realize that some who want kill cams are rude about it--so are some that don't want them. The forums are here for us to discuss the game, both what we like and don't like about it. One of the things I love about Bethesda is that they pay attention to what their customers want. They don't necessarily give us everything we want, but sometimes they do, and they give us these forums so that we can express our opinions. That said, "Bethesda's vision" is being used more and more to defend anything and everything about the game, as if it were sacred. It is not. It is a game made to sell so that their company can make money. If enough people don't like something about a game, it would behoove them to do something about it. I'm not saying that enough people don't like kill cams, I don't know. But I will continue to express my opinion on a forum made for just that.

it's too EASY for them to NOT do, simple as that. on the pc you change a 1 to a 0 in the .ini file and there gone... how hard could it be? redisigning the pause menu to accomedate another check box? c'mon...

Joined yesterday, 1st post is about kill cams svcking. Love it.

You just earned a new fan OP. Check out the thread in my sig. You are not alone. Kill Cams have decimated my faith in Bethesda.

I've no idea what happened above--obviously I made a mistake and somehow my reply got melded into the quote. That's what you get when you let an old woman fool with a computer, I guess.

I've made it pretty clear who I'm talking about. I mentioned him by name - Earthlinger. You acknowledged yourself that some of these people are rude. He's the main culprit.

I called out your exaggeration. Saying that 3 second kill cams amount to watching a movie and not playing a game is a blatant exaggeration. I didn't call you a whiner. I just said that you are over exaggerating your point.

If you really feel like that when a killcam happens, if something so small bothers you so much, then I would suggest perhaps you shouldn't play Skyrim. Or maybe any other video game for that matter, because it seems they are quick to bother and anger you.

No, no, no. One of The Elder Scrolls greatest features is that they can be, and are designed to be, modded. We are encouraged to make the game what we want it to be. I have installed a mod to rid myself of the killcams--I am here because I feel for the console users, and feel they have been left out of what makes The Elder Scrolls great. Besides, it is profoundly irritating that people feel they have the right to tell us what we may or may not ask for.

I didn't say you couldn't ask for it. I said you weren't entitled to get it, and Bethesda is under no obligation to provide it. There is a difference.

I also said that if you're going to ask for it, do so respectfully without demanding, insulting, and making exaggerated proclamations. These threads (and not just killcam toggle threads, but most of the complaint threads) aren't based in a respectful explanation of a feature that is either not working properly, or something that could be implemented better. They are more often based upon a lot of demanding, tantrums, and tirades of people with a sense of entitlement thinking that because they spent money on a game, that Bethesda "owes" it to them to cater the game specifically to them. When people respond and disagree, they are met with hostility, and those same people who complain then begin to state their opinion as if it is a general world truth, and try to impose it on everyone else.

I am unhappy with the fact that there is a delay when I enter my inventory or favorites menu. It can be annoying and frustration when I am trying to scroll through the menus, but the UI doesn't respond and I have to start mashing d-pads and joysticks to get the UI to react. It is one of the most frustrating aspects of Skyrim for me.

So with that said, what is a proper way of going about it?

"When I open up my favorites and inventory menus, I often find that the UI has a lack of response, forcing me to have to jam my d-pad and joystick back and forth in different directions to get it to work. Is this a known bug? Does Bethesda know about it? Is there or will there be a possible fix to this?"

Or

"The UI svcks! It's awful! Who designed this thing?? They just tried to cater to the console kiddies with it! The UI is stupid!!"

And back to killcams, again, what is a better way of going about it?

"I'm not really a huge fan of killcams, is there any way of turning this off on consoles? Is this something that Bethesda could look into?"

Or

"This needs to be changed! Killcams are awful! They just cater to the ADD CoD console kiddies and wrestling fans! We NEED A TOGGLE TO TURN THIS OFF! It's ruining my game!"

No, there is no law, there is no rule, that states how one must express their opinion. But just like in the real world, there are still standards that people adhere to. Standards, manners, norms. You'll get farther in real life with a bit of tact and respect, and that shouldn't be any different just because you're on an internet message board.

And as far as mods go - that's the price one pays for buying the game on console. I have all 3 (mainstream that is) Elder Scrolls games on both PC and console. Originally, because I played them exclusively on PC, and later because my gaming laptop was destroyed, and had to rebuy them for console. Then when Skyrim came out, I decided to just avoid the hassle and bought it on X-Box 360. I later got it on PC.

That is the point of mods, so that players can have every demand and wish they want in the game. However, it is simply impossible for Bethesda to even attempt to provide that. They cannot possibly fulfill everyone's meets and expectations. They upset a lot of people by removing attributes. They made a lot of other people happier by removing attributes. They upset a lot of people by adding killcams. They made a lot of other people happier by adding killcams. They upset a lot of people by going to a player skill based real time combat system. They made a lot of other people happier by doing so. They made a lot of people upset by removing armor and weapon degradation. They made a lot of other people happier by doing so.

Should they implement toggles for all of these features? Because, as the killcam argument goes, it won't affect my game one way or another if there is a toggle, right?

Or at some point, do they just need to implement a feature, go with it, and people with the capability can sort it out via mods.

I didn't say that I was entitled to get it, or that Bethesda was obligated to provide it. This started with people asking for a toggle. Then others came in and called us juvenile and spoiled for wanting them. Then we responded--it escalated. It's a good thing none of us have access to nukes, both sides. Attributes, better UI, reputation and many other things I would really like too. However, most of those things seem to be asking for Bethesda to do quite a lot. I think most of us felt we were asking for something quite reasonable and simple in asking for a toggle for killcams, and were astounded at the violent reaction we got from those who are against it. As for mods fixing everything, they don't. Some things are hardcoded, or just too hard to work around. Fortunately for pc users, killcams can be modded out, if that is our wish. But not for console users.

"which has many simplistic users who are used this type of feature in their games."

^ This was from the original post. Among many other over reactions. Go read any post by Earthlinger. I think you'll find that it wasn't started by the people who like killcams. In fact, those who want toggles had a lot of support from the pro-killcam crowd, myself included, until the argument shifted from "I would like to have a toggle because I'm not a fan of killcams" to "killcams are designed for simplistic console users, ADD CoD kiddies, and Smackdown v. Raw wrestling fans". Once the insults came about, once the overexaggeration of the issue came about, the toggle camp lost my support.

And still I am not asking that kill cams be removed entirely, despite the escalation of hostilities. That was the first post in this thread. If we are to know who exactly started the hostilities, we would have to trace back through all the threads. I think we would find that there is enough blame to go around to all sides. What puzzles me is, if you think we are wacos for wanting this, why not leave it alone to die a natural death? Oh, sure, every now and then some waco, on either side would start it up again, but all you have to do to defuse it is leave it alone. Which sounds like such excellent advice that I think I will take it. If someone asks if I want a toggle, I will answer "Yes, certainly", and go on my way. Toodles.