look, i wasn't trying to start an arguement, I was just stateing some facts that i thought should be put out there. I am honestly sad that such a simple premise has started such an arguement

I wanna have your babies.

you are putting words in my mouth. I never said modding was rude to developers. I said "Games only good with mods" statements are rude to developers as you are basicly saying what they made is crap.

lol

I do agree that some people tend to get very religious about mods, but that doesn't mean you have to look at Skyrim through pink glasses just because you feel sorry for the developers. We're not talking about an Indy game company here that can barely survive.

Some of your statements aren't right though: in fact modders do create a lot from scratch. Meshes, textures, Script Extenders, mesh exporters, NifSkope, LOD generators and plugin editing tools that are much more advanced in certain areas than the Construction Set or Creation Kit will ever be are made by people that poured in thousands of hours as well without ever asking to be paid for it. Of course a lot of the tools and mods are based on the game's framework, but that isn't any different than what Bethesda's own level designers or questmakers are doing.

This thread is like a rubber ball....

Here?

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To be fair, there are a lot of instances where Bethesda did a poor job implementing a feature and the mods have improved upon that feature.

So much so that the modded version has been incorporated into Vanilla Skyrim.

I refer, of course, to archery.

Secondly, addressing your third point - Bethesda do not have to make everything from scratch. A lot of things like, for example, the game engine, have come over from Oblivion to Fallout to Skyrim.


Without the creation kit, there were dozens of mods on Skyrim nexus.

Facts are truthful and indisputable. As it is, you made a lot of errors in your display of your emotional opinion. What you did was provide incorrect statements criticising (and even demeaning) a part of the community that is not only loved by players, but also loved by Bethesda, while showing your lack of appreciation and respect for their work.

Facts and emotional opinion are too very different things. And there isn't a lot fact in your OP.

Reading your OP I am reminded of the old advertising slogan “the more you know.” It seems there is some mystery still for you, which is implied as you stated yourself you are an amateur modder or just starting out. It can seem overwhelming, the variety of tools and technology involved in creating digital art, or that what modders do is “nothing compared to Bethesda.” I think as you learn more of the craft you will find that modders contribute significantly more than you might realize.

True, big companies like Bethesda can afford a full staff of industry leading programmers to spruce up the engines they use, but still, even they are only LICENSING someone else’s engine (Gamebryo) and building on the work of OTHERS. So, in a sense, at the core of what TES is, Bethesda themselves are modders!

In what is built upon that established foundation, you will also find that the techniques and talents that go into building 3D objects, characters, writing dialogue, painting textures, and creating immersive environments, is not by ANY means reserved only for major corporations with millions of dollars. Again it is true, they can afford to PAY dozens of full time employees to do it, and modders must work for FREE part time while they do their day job, study, and live their lives.

However, the artistic endeavor at the core of their efforts, the specific tools and talents and techniques, are one in the same. When it comes right down to it, the only real difference between a modder and a big game design studio is the money and time behind them, and the scope of what they are able to do with it.

Yeah the vanilla game is good, but with mods it's EPIC. Fact.

It's unfortunate that not everyone can play with mods, but that doesn't change the fact that mods improve the game 100%. Only a minority of the mods I run actually fix certain issues, the rest add to, change and improve the whole gaming experience. From boosting graphics, to adding content, to changing a range of gameplay mechanics, mods shape the game into what you want it to be, not to mention keeping the game fresh. This was a big selling point for me as the modding community for TES is just awesome!

So I'm sorry if the OP takes offense to the mention of mods, but to some of us, mods play a huge part in the way we play this great game.

It's not a case that mods "will fix everything."
But I give you this question. Unmodded, do any of you think that you'll still be playing Skyrim in ten years time (Morrowind) or as with Oblivion, six?
Or will it all have grown stale, with the game sold or uninstalled and gathering dust in box along with dozens of other games that you tired of?




I thought you'd say that.
That should rest the case for mods and modders.

He didn't criticize or demean modders, which, I'm assuming, is the part of the community you're referring to. He criticized people who call the game unplayable without mods.

Im a huge fan of video games on the PC ever since I built my first PC. Up until that point I was a diehard console fan but the first two games I bought for my PC (that didnt svck) were morrowind and unreal tournament 2003. After I had played both for a while I started downloading mods for them a little bit, and then a lot and then both games were basically unreconizable and in my opinion ten times more fun.

Over time I played console games less and less and never bought another one. Since then I heavily moded just about every game I every non-online FPS I've played on PC ever since. There is nothing wrong with likeing the ability to take your favorite game and personalize it completely and it caused me to play morrowind for MANY years after I probably would of other wise which I would hope in some way make the people who made the game happy.

While I actualy do genuinely like morrowind/fallout 3/skyrim completely unmodded just fine I HATED oblivion when it first came out and it took some heavy modding before I considered that game even remotely fun.

Don't be silly. It's not the same at all. However, I agree that mods will fix it is not a good answer at all if talking about the bugs. If talking about a new gameplay feature that is mor eto your tastes then it's a perfectly valid answer. Applying mods to your game is all about tailoring the game to your own personal tatses afterall.



It's not rude in the slightest. I say this as someone who loves the game with or without mods. Mods make a second playthrough worthwile for me though. I sunk well over 200 hours into one character. I couldn't imagine doing that again with the vanilla game. New mods keep things fresh for me.



I don't think anyone has argued any differently. Modders can (and have) put out content the developers can't (and haven't) but that's a world away from saying they could have made a whole game like Skyrim by themselves. I've never seen anyone say they could. Of course mods are there because of the tools Bethesda gave us. That's pretty obvious. A bit of an odd point you've made there.

You were stating your opinions, not facts. Others with differeing opinions are doing the same. Unless you want this thread to only be open to those who agree with no dissenting opinions whatsoever.

I agreed that statement such as "modders can do what bethesda can't" is rather rude, but, as other poster already stated, Bethesda have earned themselves a reputation of releasing buggy games. The statement "Mods will fix it" is totally warrant because that is what happend in the past, and is likely to stay true in Skyrim.

Clearly OP mistaken forum with twitter...

Great post OP, I agree, but don't get me wrong, I like using and making mods 2

"Mods will fix it" is not the answer. It is a tool provided to PC users to actually help themselves fix broken stuff. A game as big as Skyrim is impossible to be shipped bug free on schedule. People saying mods will fix it are only trying to be optimistic and hopefull of an active modding community, supporting a great game becoming even greater. The PC is capable of doing this. The problem with consoles isn't only the limited hardware, but also the licensing fees. I think it is highly unlikely that Microsoft or Sony would allow so much free content to be distributed over their servers. And even if they would, due to the licensing, it would be expensive beyond our wildest dreams i guess.

Mods make the game worthwile - indeed they do. Mods add new content. How does this not prolonge a games lifespan? And it is certainly everything but rude. Beth encourages modding, there is a Creation Kit... there has been one for many games. I acutally think bethesda is very proud of the modding community. Just look at the outstanding work some mods inherit. How can you possibly think this is rude?

Modders can do what Bethesda can't. Yes, they can. They aren't limited to a certain time frame. They have no budget to work with. No limitations of any sorts except their own skill and interest in their projects. In some ways, they can do what Bethasda can't. Bethesda has a goal, what to develop for the game. Modders can do whatever they want. Your are right by saying the devs are real pro's. Yet they are restricted in the work they do, as they are told what to do. Look at the game jam video, this is stuff modders can do all they want, because they don't have a game director telling them what to work on.

I know what you want to say OP. The game should be 100% viable on it's own, with mods just beeing a nice addition. Unfortunately, the sheer scope of games like Skyrim always benefits from a modding community. They fix/add/improve what Bethesda couldn't due to schedules, budgets and other projects. And i am happy it is the way it is.

It's the over-the-line arrogant comments about the game that really turn me off. There's nothing like humility to make someone look great - and it shows class. All I see from Bethesda is humility and class and generosity about their great game but there are a few modders (I hope it's only a few) who make obnoxious claims about how they'll fix what Bethesda couldn't...so cringeworthy and insulting. I have the greatest respect and admiration for the extremely talented modding community we're so lucky to have. They're amazing and very appreciated; they don't need to toot their own horns. Great post, OP.

no its true, they need to get off their high horse. seriously of all the creature packs i downloaded for oblivion not one of them contained a creature that matched the quality of those made by bethesda. maybe the unicorn because al they had to do was stick a horn on it. but yeah sloppy unproffesional looking doesn't fix or improve for me there are VERY few mods which do it right like unique landscapes and lost spire and stuff

Yeah mods are no good.


After just this one more, I'm gonna stop doing them, I swear!

I don't know why some folks get so offended when modders "fix" Beth mess. The 4GB fiasco was discovered by modders, so Beth came up with a patch to correct what modders found out in 2 or so weeks of playing the game.

That isn't what I said and putting words in my mouth isn't going to work. What you said has zero to do with my post.

When someone does something good, people know it and will praise it and respect it. They'll talk about it and appreciate it. That goes for the modders and Bethesda too.

What they made was within their given guidelines and had to work on three platforms. Mods on PC do not have guidelines and need only work on the PC. Some mod ideas were probably even intended to be in the game but were cut later for various reasons... Putting them back with a carefully designed mod does actually fix it sometimes; other times user mods have been officially incorporated/ adapted into their games.

** Incidentally... that "I love TES" emote is a user created mod.