truth about modsmodders : V - Skyrim

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:59 am

OP, you have some valid points.

However, mods do make the game much more enjoyable for me. I understand that it's not very nice to rub console players noses into that fact. But the thing is that it does, it simply does, and I won't shut up about it just to spare some players who get upset because they don't get to have all that wonderfulness.

and finally to those who say "Modders can do what bethesda can't", I am an amature modder myself, and we create very little from cratch, sure we can make custom scripts, new area, gear and the occasional quest, but that is nothing compared to what Bethesda does. we create stuff useing the tools they gave us, which makes things much easier. Bethesda has to do everything from Scratch, every Model, texture, animation, sound, and gameplay machanic they make from scratch. the mods we make are only made because Bethesda gave us the tools to do it, without them we couldn't do anything.

I'm pretty sure you've got the meaning of "Modders can do what bethesda can't" wrong.

It's meant in the sense of:
- Bethesda can't cater to minority wishes for content. Modders can and will. Most modders add to the game what they themselves believe should be added.
- Bethesda has to limit mature content (not only in nudity and sixuality but also in, for example, killable children).
- Bethesda has to take everyone's system capabilities into account. So Beth is more limited in adding content that's limited to higher-end rigs.
- etc

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:29 am

I'm utterly offended at the cascading replies post OP. Modders bust their asses off times a many to provide optional content for 0 pay and even 0 recognition to make the game better for them or for others or to give alternatives, and you have the gall to say they need off there high horse? Well holy bucking horses you're welcome I mean it's not like Beth didn't learn or get inspiration from modders :teehee:

or that they have Moddere to thank for the longevity of 2 going on 3 games now, oh or that they gpt steamworks specifically for mod distribution, no couldn't be that. Console player or not doesn't matter, people doing what they aren't obligated to do in any shape or form deserve some modicum of respect.

The truth about modders pfft, you haven't hit nirvana yet friend whether it be the satisfaction of a nights well done, baggy eyes or eureka! Moment you haven't hit it yet.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:02 am

I'm utterly offended at the cascading replies post OP. Misdeed bust their asses off times a many to provide optional content for 0 pay and even 0 recognition to make the game better for them or for others or to give alternatives, and you have the gall to say they need off there high horse? Well holy bucking horses you're welcome I mean it's not like Beth didn't learn or get inspiration from modders :teehee:

or that they have Moddere to thank for the longevity of 2 going on 3 games now, oh or that they gpt steamworks specifically for mod distribution, no couldn't be that.

The truth about modders pfft, you haven't hit nirvana yet friend whether it be the satisfaction of a nights well done, baggy eyes or eureka! Moment you haven't hit it yet.

well said!

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:08 am

From what I can gather, consolers are upset that PC players post about mods. Why?

It's not like it was some hidden secret that the PC "elite" kept hidden from the consolers all this time.

I wasn't around back then, but I bet this didn't happen with Oblivion. If it did, well, then there is some validity in the theory of the future just being history rehashed.

As for comments like "mods will fix it", "there's a mod for that", and so on. What is the problem with them specifically? Because the consolers read them and can't make use of that information? I mean, you knew what you was getting into when you bought the console, if not, lesson learnt, research, buyer beware, and all that razzle dazzle.

As someone above stated, it's pure jealousy, if it was anything else, there wouldn't be an issue.

Oh, and don't look at each other as PC/xbox gamers, look at each other as ES players, that's why we are all here, right?

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:41 pm

Oh, and don't look at each other as PC/xbox gamers, look at each other as ES players, that's why we are all here, right?

If only it was that simple

:foodndrink:

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:21 am

I was around back then. I joined the forums pre release of Morrowind. I sure don't remember this console/PC war thing from previous games or the modder dislike/disdain that crops up now. I guess people are different now but it doesn't seem like in a good way to me.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:41 am

I was a PC gamer since there were PC's. I was a game modder when were still called game hackers (because companies didn't release tools). I chose to move to PS3 for a host of reasons. Do I miss mods and modding?..... sometimes. It was my choice to game on a platform that did not allow mods. There were pros and cons at the time and for me the reasons to play on PS3 haven't changed in four years.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:28 pm

You know, I don't think it's so much of disdain/dislike of modders as it is the dislike of people who defer to mods/modders.....

Then again there was a mods svck thread a bit ago saying the current selection is sub par.

, no not the current thread about why use mods... I've kept My nose out of there /)

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:09 pm

If only it was that simple

:foodndrink:

I mean this in the politest way possible, but I don't see the complication?

(Well, that's rhetorical, the complication is of course the uneducated(NOT an insult, and I don't mean formal education, tell you what, if you need to read this to try and grasp what I meant, just skip over this post))

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:22 am

The reason why it's not that simple is because people throw their egos/honor/birthright into the mix. Nothing sets a poorly contained individual off like giving them the slightest doubt that the faith or value they place in something to over valued. Supremacy and elitism across all facets of human cognition. You think platform wars would go away if this was PC only?

HAhahahahaa

When folks stop with the -I- in We, then we can get along or rather on the road to getting there

And my statement about being set off due to undermined values applies to 99.99% of humanity

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:27 am

greetings fellow prisoners,

I've noticed on these forums i often read stuff such as "mods will fix it" or "mods make this game worth while" or even at some points "Modders can do what Bethesdas cannot". I would like to address these issues.

First of all, "Mods will fix it" should never be an answer to any problem. I am a hardcoe PC gamer, but not everyone has the finances or resources for PC gaming, or simply dont like gaming on a PC. think of how you would feel if they suddenly gave consoles hundreds of dollars worth of DLC and updates that PCs would never get... that is the exact feeling you give console gamers when you state "Mods Will fix it".

Secondly "mods make the game worthwhile", if that is your opinion that is fine, but it is quite rude to those that have put thousands of hours into writing, developing, and testing Skyrim. they don't have the time or resources to include every feature every fan wants

and finally to those who say "Modders can do what bethesda can't", I am an amature modder myself, and we create very little from cratch, sure we can make custom scripts, new area, gear and the occasional quest, but that is nothing compared to what Bethesda does. we create stuff useing the tools they gave us, which makes things much easier. Bethesda has to do everything from Scratch, every Model, texture, animation, sound, and gameplay machanic they make from scratch. the mods we make are only made because Bethesda gave us the tools to do it, without them we couldn't do anything.

anyways ive got that off my chest, happy gaming

In response to all your concerns... PCs will fix that.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:45 pm

From what I can gather, consolers are upset that PC players post about mods. Why?

It's not like it was some hidden secret that the PC "elite" kept hidden from the consolers all this time.

I wasn't around back then, but I bet this didn't happen with Oblivion. If it did, well, then there is some validity in the theory of the future just being history rehashed.

As for comments like "mods will fix it", "there's a mod for that", and so on. What is the problem with them specifically? Because the consolers read them and can't make use of that information? I mean, you knew what you was getting into when you bought the console, if not, lesson learnt, research, buyer beware, and all that razzle dazzle.

As someone above stated, it's pure jealousy, if it was anything else, there wouldn't be an issue.

Oh, and don't look at each other as PC/xbox gamers, look at each other as ES players, that's why we are all here, right?

Yes, it`s simple, silly jealousy. It`s sad really- It should not even be an issue. It reminds me of an Aesop fable where a wolf wanted the rest of the wolves to cut their tales off cos he lost his, making out it was better to have no tail.

I think if some consolers could have their way they`d have Bethesda cancel the CK and Mod-making just because they don`t like it. It really shows a bad part of Human nature.

More mature console players are interested in what PC Mods can do and if smart will ask questions, observe and LEARN about Mods as it reveals much about what is and is not possible in the game.

But no, they`d rather have a separate forum (it`s been asked) or try to denegrate anyone using Mods even trying to accuse them as being an insult to the Devs! the very Devs who made the CK and the gave us the ability to Mod! Talk about twisting something good to make it look evil.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:45 pm

I've seen lots of posts over the last few months implying it somehow dishonours the company or the product if you make changes to it, or even criticize it. This is a strange way to think about a product. If you have a suggestion or criticism that would improve something then why not tell everyone. The same goes for modding; if you can change something to help you or everyone else then why not? This applies to all products. I not only mod video games, but also my chair, my clothes, vehicles, etc. There's no shame in this.

It's fine if lots of people consider Bethesda's games to be unplayable crap without mods. That's not any more rude than me telling Square-Enix I don't like their games (though that would be rude if I signed up on their forums just to say that with no intention of playing them). Obviously anyone who is willing to play a modded game sees potential in it or they wouldn't bother.

When I make something for somebody I don't mind if they tell me it needs work or if they hate it. It means they need to find something else to use or I need to fix my work if I can. If they make changes to it that's cool too. Maybe I'll make some of my changes when I make another one of those things for somebody.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:25 pm

I've seen lots of posts over the last few months implying it somehow dishonours the company or the product if you make changes to it, or even criticize it. This is a strange way to think about a product. If you have a suggestion or criticism that would improve something then why not tell everyone. The same goes for modding; if you can change something to help you or everyone else then why not? This applies to all products. I not only mod video games, but also my chair, my clothes, vehicles, etc. There's no shame in this.

It's fine if lots of people consider Bethesda's games to be unplayable crap without mods. That's not any more rude than me telling Square-Enix I don't like their games (though that would be rude if I signed up on their forums just to say that with no intention of playing them). Obviously anyone who is willing to play a modded game sees potential in it or they wouldn't bother.

When I make something for somebody I don't mind if they tell me it needs work or if they hate it. It means they need to find something else to use or I need to fix my work if I can. If they make changes to it that's cool too. Maybe I'll make some of my changes when I make another one of those things for somebody.

Please, spend 5 years developing something, then have someone tell you that it's so bad that they don't want to interact with it in any way unless you let them change it. See whether you feel insulted.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:50 am

I usually just flat out ignore the disdain towards mods, modders and mods-users.

Imho there is no valid argument to dislike modability. I categorize it into being either uneducated, mis-informed or pathetic jealousy. The latter being the worst far out, because it's just misdirected anger/frustration.

.. or try to denegrate anyone using Mods even trying to accuse them as being an insult to the Devs! the very Devs who made the CK and the gave us the ability to Mod! Talk about twisting something good to make it look evil.

True, in fact Bethesda's devs have themselves been frequently involved with the community, helping it move onwards in the background and even making active contributions.

Bethesda has stated over and over and over that they absolutely support modding, and that they take a lot of inspiration from the shared love for their games.

[edit]

Please, spend 5 years developing something, then have someone tell you that it's so bad that they don't want to interact with it in any way unless you let them change it. See whether you feel insulted.

I wouldn't be.

I would consider it constructive criticism if anyone who claim they find the game unplayable/lacking for some reason actually go about fixing it from their perspective. I would take notice of the work that fan releases. Because the fan obviously does care enough about the game I made to put work into it, and his/her work at least is very constructive. Much more constructive then moaping and moaning about whatever gripe he/she has on forums.

And most modders and people who use mods don't really look at it that way. They look at mods as a way to improve on the game, according to their own personal preferences.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:13 am

this did not begin well, has not gone well, and cannot end well

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:16 am

Please, spend 5 years developing something, then have someone tell you that it's so bad that they don't want to interact with it in any way unless you let them change it. See whether you feel insulted.

yes yes, because they're doing it out of the bottom of their hearts, for charity.

such dissonance.

"Their a business, they don't need to cater to you they make millions of dollars you are inconsequential."

-Helps themselves by using tools provided FREELY AND ENCOURAGED by the Devs-

"Look at that, messing with art and tarnishing it, you people should be ashamed all that hard work they put in"

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:06 am

yes yes, because they're doing it out of the bottom of their hearts, for charity.

such dissonance.

"Their a business, they don't need to cater to you they make millions of dollars you are inconsequential."

-Helps themselves by using tools provided FREELY AND ENCOURAGED by the Devs-

"Look at that, messing with art and tarnishing it, you people should be ashamed all that hard work they put in"

I didn't say that there was any problem with modding the game.

I have a problem with people saying that the original product is worthless without mods. And yes, the developers are artists: writers, graphic artists, designers, etc. Unless you've actually dedicated a significant chunk of your life to making a work of art (even if you earned *gasp* money from it) and then had someone tell you that it was so bad they wouldn't use it without modifying it, then you don't get to comment on how unbelievably rude it is to say this to the development team.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:35 am

yes yes, because they're doing it out of the bottom of their hearts, for charity.

They are? In that case i'll never critisize anything they do ever again. As soon as i get the money that i apparently didn't have to pay back :teehee:

Until that happens, need mods, and then some :tongue:

And if you ask me, using mods to alter something you don't like is a polite way of saying "i don't like this". Saying the game is worthless without mods is exaggaration, though i wouldn't have bought it at full price if the CK wasn't coming. More as a protest than due to reduction of it's perceived value, though :shrug:

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:14 am

I didn't say that there was any problem with modding the game.

I have a problem with people saying that the original product is worthless without mods.

This is emotive rubbish. No one has ever said that. That`s just you trying to make more out of it than it is.

Yes, I probably wouldn`t have bought the game without modding support because to me, the game does not do enough to challenge me. that doesn`t mean it`s rubbish, just not good enough. I have a long history of experience with rpgs and I yearn for depth of those games that Skyrim cannot provide. Mods help go someway to provide that depth. Eye candy is NOT depth.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:56 am

I didn't say that there was any problem with modding the game.

I have a problem with people saying that the original product is worthless without mods. And yes, the developers are artists: writers, graphic artists, designers, etc. Unless you've actually dedicated a significant chunk of your life to making a work of art (even if you earned *gasp* money from it) and then had someone tell you that it was so bad they wouldn't use it without modifying it, then you don't get to comment on how unbelievably rude it is to say this to the development team.

well from my prespective you did, the "so bad they won't touch it unless you change it" if you change it your a modda no? and sorreh the world doesn't work that way on who does and does not get to say what ;p and I'm tired of hearing statements like that because even if I was a person who didn't spend massive buttloads of work on a project spanning several years only to be told "I don't like it, or it svcks" one would STILL come up with an excuse regardless.

You don't need to be special to have a valid opinion, since facts are so mallable and subjected to personal belief lets stick with Opinions shall we? without the misinformed cannotation that opinion = not true in any shape or form.

No issue with your view not liking when people throw stones at the glass art they dislike, by all means no. but as I say again its of little consequence to the people Making the monehz and defers back to my point about peeps throwing a fit when the value they place in something is not met with "here here" and "this cannot be said enough"

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:54 am

This is emotive rubbish. No one has ever said that. That`s just you trying to make more out of it than it is.

Yes, I probably wouldn`t have bought the game without modding support because to me, the game does not do enough to challenge me. that doesn`t mean it`s rubbish, just not good enough. I have a long history of experience with rpgs and I yearn for depth of those games that Skyrim cannot provide. Mods help go someway to provide that depth. Eye candy is NOT depth.

Again, you seem to think that I just pull these things out of thin air. Here are a few posts from this thread:

They are? In that case i'll never critisize anything they do ever again. As soon as i get the money that i apparently didn't have to pay back :teehee:

Until that happens, need mods, and then some :tongue:

And if you ask me, using mods to alter something you don't like is a polite way of saying "i don't like this". Saying the game is worthless without mods is exaggaration, though i wouldn't have bought it at full price if the CK wasn't coming. More as a protest than due to reduction of it's perceived value, though :shrug:

Well ya see op trolly pants, the point is Beth probably won't fix XY or Z. So the answer to such questions will invariably be "mods will fix it" or "There is a mod to fix it".

Ive heard this used for game mechanics more than anything, like the magic system. Beth would not agree there is anything wrong with it, but when asked if beth will fix it, the only answer can be "No, but there are mods to fix it".

In my opinion, Skyrim is boring and shallow without mods. With mods, it's still shallow, but just a little bit less boring.

Every single one of these says that the developers did such a bad job that they made a game that no one would play if it weren't for mods. The funny thing is that I've never seen a modder say that. They're usually the ones improving on a specific aspect of the game, or tweaking graphics, etc.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:33 am

To be frank, if console users didn't mind the thought of a modded game then these constant threads wouldn't appear, nor would there be so many threads closed down on the reasons mods can't be done and wont be available for the console versions.
To PC users that are against mods and modders all I will say to you is don't use 'em. But the ability to alter/improve your gaming experience is at your finger tips. You do what you want with the game, but don't tell me how to use what I paid for.

You just have to love these almost daily console versus PC confrontation topics. :yuck:

IMO this is just another "I can't mod my game, why should you be able to?" topics.
Browse the Nexus people. If console users can say to themselves in all honesty after spending 10 minutes there that they haven't seen at least a couple of mods that they wouldn't use then threads like this one wouldn't exist.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:38 am

Every single one of these says that the developers did such a bad job that they made a game that no one would play if it weren't for mods.

Actually, i said that calling the game worthless without mods is exaggarating

I would play it, but not nearly as long.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:06 am

Actually, i said that calling the game worthless without mods is exaggarating :wink:

I would play it, but not nearly as long.

Actually, I believe you said you wouldn't have paid full price for it.