Everyone knew that Ulfric grew up at High Hrothgar and knew the thu'um. His selection to go there was considered a great honor. They may have assumed that he followed the Way of the Voice, though. We're not ever told if he had used the thu'um in battle before. I got the impression from Ulfric talking that he had used it in battle. He says that even though the Greybeards' philosophy is beautiful, he had not been able to keep to it because he couldn't sit by and not take action.

No, the point is that the Nords have become weak and that Torygg was only a puppet king, not a worthy high king of Skyrim. It's a similar philosophy to the orcs', and to many warrior cultures including the ancient Germanic. The king is the one who is the strongest warrior, because he's the one who can defend his people, and that is a matter of their survival as a people.

Cheers for the link i obviously missed him when i went and was too busy being amazed that kodlak was there. Unfortunately ive already joined the imperials, i don't much appreciate direct racism towards me when i offer my assistance. And still think Ulfrics intentions are not as noble as he portrays, the great thing... there is no right answer.

That reminds me of Genghis Khan. Nobody tried to usurp him. He's the best warrior and leader the Mongols had

The great warleaders of skyrim's past shouted their enemies down and absolutely devastated them. Ulfric didn't need to use the shout, it was meant as a rallying cry. The rise of someone actually willing to fight the elves again.


Also I'm pretty sure some of the material concerning the markarth incident remarks that Ulfric used shouts there, so it should have been common knowledge.

I'm not 100% certain on that though.

According to Ulfric, any Nord could request training. He may be exaggerating since he also says that his being chosen was an honor, and the Greybeards aren't all that welcoming of visitors. I take it that it fell out of use because people are suspicious of magical power and Jurgen Windcaller actively discouraged its use in battle.

Thanks for answer

So i guess it was a fair fight technically , but Ulfric still had to trick the High King in order to defy him , and knew he would win apparently , also he used a shout which is a weapon his opponent could not use .
So , it's mixed IMHO , fair in the sense that it fits the Nord tradition , but unfair because the result of the fight was more or less known in advance

you're saying if I was in his shoes and conjured Ohdaviin to fight the battle for me it's still fair? I disagree.

by the same token you could argue that you're fully legitimate in killing a child provided you issued a challenge the child accepted.

an anology would be a nuclear power engaging in warfare against a much weaker nation. Just because you have nuclear weapons in that situation, does it mean you should use them? Not when you can easily win without them. Bad publicity, and hurts relations (the part that really weakened Ulfric's cause from the start).

and, if Ulfric wanted to prove his superiority, and as is later revealed that Torygg knew he stood no chance, I'm fairly certain he could have done so without using the voice. Furthermore, it would vastly improve his standing among the people. What's the most common thing guards say about the fight? "They say Ulfric Stormcloak murdered the High King... with his voice! shouted him apart!" This signifies that it was not so much the death of torygg at ulfric's hands that concerns them, but the use of the voice to kill him.

Argenir doesn't discuss it with you about Ulfric. He states the beliefs of the greybeards when you mention the blades during the dragonrend quest. Using the voice in combat when one isn't the dragonborn is not something they condone.

Just shows how effective the imperial propaganda machine is. They immediately painted it as a brutal scene of wanton murder where Ulfric strolls up and shouts Torygg into pieces. It doesn't matter if he shouted or not, the imperials would have still claimed Ulfric murdered Torygg.

Odahviing is not a Shout, I myself disagree that it is categorized as a Shout, you're basically asking somebody to fight for you. Which is not what Ulfric did: he fought by himself. He's simply too strong for Torygg to defeat

The sad truth is, that's what happened in World War II: Japan was ready to surrender, but due to some mistranslations (them being Japanese and all), Hiroshima and Nagasaki took the brunt. And what happened? Within 60 years the Japanese export stuff that many Americans import.

Strategically, winning as quickly as possible is the best course of action. It wouldn't take long before Imperial units start to surround him. While you may argue he wasn't fair, he's basically fighting within enemy territory miles away from the nearest safe point.

More specifically, they are talking about how the Shout was said to be so powerful and badass that Ulfric can banish people to Sovngarde merely with his
bad breath Shout. I too, would be impressed if Osama bin Laden can conjure a freaking fire ball from his hands and use it to burn down a president from some country. I won't support him, but I'd be heavily impressed, if I don't call street magic trickery.

I'll see what I can dig up. I've never heard the double-standard way like that. I do remember that he said the use of Shout is kinda necessary in MQ's problem, but he never said anything about only Dragonborn can use it freely

He murdered him. Not a dispicable practice, but he killed him in cold blood to take the throne. Of course he legitimately challenged him in a rite the Empire doesn't recognize, so that's why they say that he killed him. I despise Ulfric for his racist attitude though. That none but the Nords should be allowed to live in Skyrim and all other races, particularly the elven kind should be banished, slain or enslaved is just plain ridiculous. I had already joined the Stormcloaks before I found out what a tremendous jerk he really is (I thought he was nobly standing up for religious freedom, but I was sadly mistaken) However in his case, he is the lesser fo two evils. The empire wants to strip Skyrim of her heritage and belief, Ulfric wants to play Hitler and make a perfect Skyrim. They're both wrong, but in the end, the Empire is the worse of two evils.

I remember Arngeir expressing a belief that the Dragonborn is set above the Way of the Voice when I expressed a desire to follow it.

I'm sorry, but i disagree. No witness could ever claim it was murder in that case. Challenged, fought in the traditional, conventional manner, armed physical combat. won. end of story.

regardless, even I don't consider what happened "murder". i just feel it was dishonorable.

and Torygg was not a puppet in the way he is portrayed. He strongly disagreed with the empire on several issues.

"Through dialogue with his former court members and Elisif, the player can discover he was largely against the Empire, and even respected by http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Ulfric_Stormcloak. His court wizard even stated that he would have probably stood up against the Empire, should Ulfric had asked him to." - elder scrolls wiki (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Torygg)

FURTHERMORE, as discovered if you read the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric, he's essentially a tool (though I believe he's unaware of it) the thalmor are exploiting to tear apart the empire.

[citation needed]


Just as no witness could claim ulfric shouted the high king to pieces? It doesn't matter to the empire what the nord customs are. The duel was murder to them.

I agree. I have never heard Ulfric himself say anything negative against the other races(with the exception of the Dominion), only claims from others. I believe he would put the needs of the Nords before others though.

His entire group of Stormcloaks are all about returning Skyrim to the Nords. It's everywhere you look in the game. They question your motives when you try to join as another race than nord. In Ulfric's own city, Dunmer and Argonians are treated as less than dirt and he does nothing (not even going through the motions) to discourage it. Many of his followers encourage it. Are you saying that the beliefs of the Stormcloaks in general aren't the beliefs of Ulfric himself?

not quite. White-Gold Concordat was a VERY unpopular move to all citizens of the empire, though felt more in skyrim. Plus, if you side with the empire and end the civil war, both tullius and rekke state the legions should essentially prepare for a renewed conflict with the thalmor that all know is coming soon. it's not like the empire is saying "no talos? yeah we love that let's force everyone to abide by it forever!" The current situation is, most npcs seem to agree, a temporary armistice. nothing more.

The Stormcloaks question your motives for joining even if you're a Nord. Buck up a little. You're asked to prove yourself to the legion, too.

Returning skyrim to the nords != kill every single outsider. They want self-governance not mass murder.

To Stone-Fist when joining the Stormcloaks: Skyrim is home to more than just nords.
Stone-Fist agrees with you. Ulfric encourages you to join themoment you speak to him regardless of race.(He doesn't comment on it at all)

I believe Ulfric would welcome all who supported an independant Skyrim and accepted to live by nordic traditions. IIRC there is one dunmer in Windhelm who states that those who complain about their situation should actually do something about it, and a book that states the same thing.

Of course he intended to kill him. Thats implied in the challenge. Its a duel to the death. Doesnt make it murder.

Largely against the empire? I don't recall hearing that from anyone. They say (Sybille Sentor says, to be specific) that Torygg admired Ulfric and would have supported him if he had called for independence. Which, to my ears, just reinforces that he's a milk drinker who goes along with whoever happens to appear strong. Why is he waiting around for Ulfric to act? He's supposed to be the one in charge. And again, other pvssyr in Solitude (the vendor at Bits and Pieces, that is) says that all Torygg did was make long, rambling speeches about the empire.

edit- Also keep in mind that Sybille isn't a very good judge of character. She's sure your Dovahkiin can barely lace his/ her boots. She doesn't even say that she overheard Torygg, just that she somehow knew what he was thinking. Probably with the sketchy scrying magic she uses to reassure Elisif that absolutely nothing is going on at Wolfskull Cave.

Ulfric never says anything racist about my Argonian joining the Stormcloaks. If the Stormcloaks are so racist, why do Niranye and Nurelion, 2 ALTMER FOR PETE'S SAKE, have stores and nobody complains about it. Not to mention that a DUNMER owns a farm outside Windhelm where a NORD works. A NORD works for a DUNMER! Argonians and Dunmer can't be together what with the fact that Argonians did invade Morrowind and slaughtered countless numbers of them. Seeing as how Dunmer can live for hundreds of years, it's very likely some of the the Dunmer were alive when the Argonians invaded. Even Brunwulf, the Imperial Jarl of Windhelm, can't immediately allow Argonians into the city since the tensions between Argonians and Dunmers is too high. Niranye mentions the reason the Dunmer are neglected is that they aren't contributing to the war effort. They claim it's not their fight and don't even do things like allow healers to help the Stormcloaks. The Stormcloaks are in a war and have a group of people essentially taking up resources and doing nothing in return. Do you honestly expect them to welcome these people with open arms? If you paid attention, you'd realize that the Nord way is proving yourself to be useful. If you are useful, you are welcomed with open arms. The Nord way of life just doesn't give away everything to people who don't contribute. Niranye states that people were suspicious of her at first but after proving herself she is welcome in Windhelm.

You know, this actually seems like a fail on Bethesda writing staff's part.
I could join the Stormcloaks as an High Elf, and stand next to Ulfric while he gives his hate speeches about my race, LOL

I am sure if it was in, say, Obsidian's hands or someone more competent the whole Stormcloaks x Race issue would have been more consistent. Alas, thanks to the issue mentioned above the entire RP value goes out of the window.

The dunmer were asked to join the stormcloaks and refused. Its implied when they are criticized for not helping, and they admit its true. That doesnt sound like they are excluded to me. It sounds like they dont think the Jarl's problems are their problems. They excluded themselves.

OTOH, Niranye who is a high elf was able to make her way in Windhelm very quickly. She did it by working hard and fitting in.

The battle cry Skyrim for the Nords isnt supposed to mean they want to exclude other races, its meaning is that they dont want to be ruled by foreign powers.

Yes, it was murder.

Murder in the context that it was a calculated political assassination. Call me crazy but I don't think that the majority of honor duels end with the other party fleeing out the gates on horseback with one of the guards keeping the door open so he could do it.

Was it legal by Nord tradition?

Yes.

However, I believe murder can be legalized. It's still murder.

Then again, I gave Ulfric exactly what he gave the High King. A shout then a stab.


Given it was treason and they live in a ghetto, I don't think they have any reason. It's not like Ulfric promised them anything.