Shout and a Stab? I like the way you think.
No seriously, I don't think there's much info (lore) into these traditional Nord duels, so we can only assume it could be like the real life counterpart e.g. same weapons and nothing else. Or not.

In any case, in my opinion using a shout in a duel is still as 'honorable' as winning a fencing match with a flashbang grenade.

Well, the losing party don't usually try to capture the winning party, if you get what I mean.

Or people just assume things based on a surface impression that aren't actually true? Where does Ulfric ever express hatred toward all elves? I call this nuanced writing- you can't just listen to one or two things and run with them, you need to look at other sides.

If it was murder then the king volunteered to be murdered. If it was treason then the high king was complicit in it too. There isnt a city in skyrim where you can buy a house without first serving the Jarl. So what makes dunmer of windhelm special that they should be exempt from that requirement?

Elisif flat out says Torygg seems to have just disappeared. But I also don't think the voice itself was what killed torygg. My point was merely that the emphasis rests on murder and voice.

if you talk to the Nord who walks through the Grey quarter on your first visit, (wearing scale armor), he says he's brought the issue to Ulfric before.

and I agree, looking at both sides is important.

I think it qualifies as dirty pool but not illegal. Let's face it, in gladiator matches in Oblivion, you could use magic so I figure it's more the case of anything goes. Everyone seems more awed by Ulfric killing the guy with the Thu'um than saying, "THAT'S CHEATING."

Of course, I think whether or not he broke the rules of a formal duel is probably the least thing on anyone's mind.

The High King accepted the duel, even knowing he'd have lost anyway, and went to his death willingly.

It's weird but he and the Emperor, despite all the [censored] they take, both very courageous men.

Edit:

I think it would have been awesome to challenge Ulfric to a formal duel for a finale in the Imperial campaign, because, really - it's perfect. The Dragonborn is likely just as more powerful than Ulfric as Ulfric was to the High King.

48 lvl vs. 20 vs. 3rd.

So if an imperial says its wrong then that makes it murder. Because the imperials tried to arrest him when he won, hence the fleeing the city.

Imperial law is the one true law that supercedes all others and is always correct in any situation.


Ulfric lets the Dunmer live in his city without swearing fealty, without paying taxes, or having any sort of responsibility to the hold at all. That's pretty generous.

I did and I am still convinced that Obsidian/CD Projekt would do a better job considering the "nuanced writing" (NCR x Legion x Mr. House, Blue Stripes x Scoia'Tael).

IMHO, I still find an High Elf joining the rebels as plausible as Thalmor getting surprise buttsecksed by re-appearing Dwemers. RP gameplay reasons, it's not like I couldn't join them if I wanted

Ulfric is able to shout because he was in the process of being a Grey-Beard, the Great War changed his mind.


I do not think of Ulfric as a murder. He challenged the High King in ancient Nord tradition which most people seemed to have lost due to the Imperial's clouding their judgment. If you listen to General Tullius he is not exactly happy about the way Nords run things in Skyrim. Basically the Empire wants the Nords to follow the Empire's traditions and laws, but several Nords beleive that throwing them away makes them less of a Nord and a puppet of the Empire. If you listen to the people of Solitude they tell you the Queen maybe in charge but the Empire pulls the strings.

I don't think the Empire has the right to tell the Nords how to run things muchless traditions they should or should not use. They have no right to tell a race how to do things, this happened to the Snow Elves and look were they are.

Just because he doesn't force them to fight in his war doesn't mean they don't pay taxes and aren't citizens.


Counterpoint, this is EXACTLY what the King of the Forsworn says. However, his people's ancient traditions are "eat people and worship demons."

There's something to be said for the Nord's ancient ways being pretty [censored]. Especially if you have Ulfric getting away with murdering a poor guy who seemed to be running the nicest kingdom in Skyrim.

In real life, the Old Ways usually give way to the New Ways because the Old Ways were [censored].

You honestly weren't expecting they'd just let him go after murdering the King in the local Imperial-minded city?

That's akin to assassinating your president, and even if he was a scumbag, you will still get thrown into the jail for murder.

dont necessarily disagree, but I think you're wrong on the snow elves. from my understanding, the snow elves noticed the human growth and colonization was spreading too rapidly, so they attacked and butchered all humans except Ysgamor and his son, who sailed back to Atmora, gathered an army, returned, and waged war against the snow elves, killing them by the thousands and driving them underground.

The only just set of morals that are fair to judge someone with are the ones that are known and accepted in that time and place. Not one person in skyrim says it was an unfair challenge because of the use of the voice. The ones that call it murder dont accept that it was a challenge. The ones that accept it was a challenge dont call it murder.

To say it was a challenge but it wasnt a fair challenge is imposing a moral sense that no one in skyrim would expect Ulfric or anyone else to follow.

Counterpoint: just for the sake of argument.

The issue isn't whether it was legal by Ancient Nord Law.

The issue is whether it was murder.

The Solitudians (or whatever the hell they're called) seem to include a lot of people who think Imperial Law is better than Old Nord laws.

So it's a difference of opinion there. I actually thought the guy beheaded should have been because that was messed up.

But yes, Ulfric killed his leige lord in a duel and that pretty much makes it all right and proper.

Still, it was a pretty scummy thing to do and was done solely for political gain.

There are a number of reasons for a high elf to support the stormcloaks. I'm rolling an Altmer who is anti-Thalmor resistance. Not sure yet if she will support the empire or the stormcloaks, but it could go either way. The Altmer in Windhelm seem to be doing pretty well for themselves. Ever see the inside of Niranye's house? It's one of the nicest in the city. My character suspects she's a Thalmor plant, actually. You could also support them if your character is pro-Thalmor and you want to see the empire fractured.

Anyway... my one big problem with FNV was that Caesar's Legion was a joke. There was no reason why a sane, competent person would side with them, especially as a female (which all my Couriers were). That's not very nuanced if you ask me. I like that both sides of the civil war are grey shaded.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Decree_of_Monument




Well jefferson did like going around and challenging people to gunfight duels while he was president.

But no that's a bad comparison, because american law has always said presidential assassination is treason.
Skyrim law says, so long as you offer the challenge and the high king accepts, it's ok.

Right. They were driven underground and made an alliance with the dwarves. But the dwarves did not allow the snow elves to do whatever tradtions the elves had at the time. They poisoned them and forced them to be slaves.

Same thing is happening with the Nords is a way. They are being driven to put aside their ancient ways and follow the Empire ways. They are not allowing the Nords to worship their hero Talos. Now the some Nords are slowly being blinded by the Empire and basically become the "slaves" of their laws and traditions.

a surprisingly academic comment. I don't know why but, I didn't expect such a thing. A historian, perhaps? Or student of history?

with that said, this thread IS also about opinions, not necessarily actual fact, though I fully admit we appear to be trying to argue it as such.

Well, they still get flak from all the Stormcloak sympathizers. Propaganda I say! Nyah!


Won't lie. That would be awesome.

I stand corrected on the elves.

Ulfric doesn't necessarily owe them anything. Brunwulf is just being a really swell guy.

Not quite. Skyrim is the home province of men in Tamriel. Tiber Septim, first emperor of the septim dynasty, was a nord. The issue is not quite the loss of nordic culture and tradition so much as it is their anger at the banning of talos worship (which is temporary, I assure you. I definitely prefer the imperial side to the stormcloaks, but I absolutely long for the day the war with the thalmor can be renewed, and the damned elven extremists brought to their knees). If the empire itself, and by extension the culture of the empire is all traced to its skyrim origins, wouldn't that mean all imperial laws and customs are too?

with that said, I don't like the current emperor, though granted he came to power in a very difficult time. But i support the empire, and I don't think an independent skyrim, which would still face threats from the rest of the empire, is the best way to defeat the true threat: the thalmor.

Even though I don't like Ulfric, I don't think he is a murderer.

Well, that could work I guess. But right now I still have to finish my 2nd playtrhough. IF I actually force myself to do it due to lack of time and motivation. http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?&app=forums&module=extras§ion=legends#

The whole game seemed more NCR biased, I give you that. However, I still felt like I got more interaction about the gender than in Skyrim(race in there). For example bunch of Ceaser goons looking down on me, and one of them outright refusing to let me fight in the arena because I was a lowly female. And don't get me started on the entire Black Widow/Cherchez la Femme possibilities.

But isn't Skyrim still an Imperial province? In that case the "treason" law would make sense to me. Especially in that city.

Of course, I could be mistaken. You got any books or lore on that? It's been a while since I've played anything TES related and I don't feel like downloading Skyrim again on Steam now at 0:45 AM

NIranye is NOT successful because of hard work that won her acceptance; she's sucessful because fencing for the Summerset Shadows and later the Thieves Guild is very lucrative.

Sybille Stentor and all of the Solitude court witnessed the duel; she makes a comment to the effect that the High King was decorating the walls when Ulfric was done with him.

And as for my opinion?

"Murder most foul / As in the best it is."