I don't give a flying [censored] about who dies the most glorious way, the Empire is better united and and an United Empire means better chance against Thalmor, avoiding future wars between Cyrodiil and Skyrim, lots of people don't die and the list goes on. It does not matter to me who is king and who is "right", violence is never right especially if we are talking about such pathetic nonsense like the "backstab" theory Stormcloaks are brewing. If Stormcloaks want to die because they don't like Talos ban that's their business but they are dragging a lot of innocent people six feet under because they just want to prove their point.

United eh? Then how come several provinces dissolved their relationship with the Empire? Does not sound very united to me.

So your saying its NOT OK for the Stormcloaks to drag innocent people who are fighting for a cause they believe in to their deaths, but its OK for the Empire to recruit people to fight against the Thalmor and only turn around and sign the very treaty they declined earlier.

Not to sound like an ass to you hun, that sounds, well rather hypocritical and the same B.S. the Empire is trying to fed the Nords. No offense

The Empire didn't backstab Skyrim. Now Hammerfell, on the otherhand...

Btw, in the thalmor embassy mission, theres a thalmor dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak. If you read it, turns out Ulfric is like Quaid in Total Recall, hes an agent of the thalmor but he doesnt know it. If Ulfric wins, it means the empire wont get nord troops when the thalmor strike. Its all about the big picture, without the nords the empire might fall and the thalmor would pwn skyrim.

Its a pattern. There are similarities between what the empire did to hammerfell and what the Jarl of Markarth did to Ulfric.

To be fair, not only did the Thalmor plan the Markarth Incident, but Ulfric and his militia did do some pretty horrible things at Markarth.

So they claim. The Thalmor try to take credit for hanging the moon. Literally.

I think it's likely Ulfric brutally suppressed the Forsworn rebellion because:

1. They're Bretons.
2. They're Daderic worshiping psychopaths.
3. They're traitors to the Empire.
4. Their entire philosophy is bat-[censored] crazy.

Despite my sympathies with the Forsworn, I had to wipe out one of their villages to stop the Red Eagle from being resurrected.

That doesn't mean the book isn't highly biased in favor of the Forsworn or that Ulfric bears responsibility for the atrocities done by the Silver-Bloods and Jarl of Markath in ADDITION to probably sacking the Forsworn controlled city.

BTW - did anyone else find a "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"-esque book written by Dark Elves (supposedly) about how they had a secret plot to take over Windhelm through the Gray Quarter"?

I was talking about the Thalmor taking credit for starting the Markarth Incident. There's a pattern with them. Poo happens, then they show up and say "we did that." I'm sure they had agents in Skyrim, but I'm also sure they're exaggerating everything in that dossier.

As for the claims of brutality, I don't doubt that there was brutality in the war with the Forsworn. The Forsworn themselves are vicious to their enemies, by ancient oath. Rooting them out of a fortified city was never going to be easy. The fact is that this was an operation that was carried out with the approval and support of the jarl's family who was loyal to the empire. Just to put it on Ulfric, that smells of scapegoating. You know the saying follow the money? Follow the money in Markarth and see who benefitted from its retaking. It wasn't Ulfric. I mean, holy nine divines- they do the same exact thing to the Dovahkiin in the Forsworn Conspiracy. I bet there would have been The Dragonborn Butcher of Markarth published after you were sent to Cidhna Mine.

While a United Empire might be the best way to defeat the Thalmor, Ulfric seems like he could forge a military alliance with the Ex-Imperial states easier. So different strokes for different folks.

Amusingly, I think the guy who wrote both Forsworn books wasn't a patsy or stooge. He strikes me as those kind of academics (I know, because I work in academia) who exalt local cultures while ignoring the bad.

Like the people who talk about the Aztecs gloriously without mentioning the human sacrifice.

Oh I know- that's how he strikes me, too. They're such a peaceful people! So civilized! You can practically hear the harp music.

The only Jarl who cares about his subjects is the Jarl of Whiterun. If you speak to him about the civil war he gives a disillusioned and down to earth view of things. He's also a fair man: he let a priest of Talos in its town even if he's allied with the imperials. I don't like the Thalmor and I understand the issues of the Nords but Ulfric is a bad answer to a real problem.

Talking about the Jarl of Whiterun, he's a true nord, he went to high hrogthar in his youth as well and he helps you fight a dragon in his backyard while all the guards flee. A shame I cannot make him high king... you know the old saying: when two men fight, the third profits.

They didn't take credit for orchestrating the Markarth Incident. They pulled it off without making themselves look like the culprits (instead people think they were just responding to the Ulfric deciding to openly defy them), they are hiding the fact that they set it all up.

Versidue Shaie was also an Akaviri Tsaesci, a Vampiric Serpentman likely centuries old. The Tsaesci are pretty legendary for their tactics, magic, and brutality. The Tsaesci are the reason why Black Dragons went extinct in Akavir, and they're the ones that crushed the Empire when it tried to invade Akavir. They are well known in lore as military genuises. The "current" Emperor, Titus Mede II, is a damn fop. An entire boat of Penitus Oculatus soldiers couldn't even protect him from a single Dark Brotherhood Assassin. Do you think they could've kept his ass alive against all the Thalmor Spies/Assassins that are in the Imperial Court?

Like i said before in other topics, the Empire is doomed. The very moment the Emperor issues the order to attack the Aldmeri Dominion, the Thalmor will know about it before the order even reaches the Empire's troops. They will know when/where/how the attack will happen, and can just completely [censored] block the Empire with a ambush. Hell, they could even intercept and alter the orders, so the Empire ends up sending it's troops to the middle of nowhere while the Thalmor sack the Imperial City again. It'd be the Empire's fault too, for signing that damn White Gold Concordant and letting the Thalmor in so completely.
The Thalmor would likely have a much harder time planting spies in a Stormcloak unified Skyrim, because of Ulfric's supposed "racism". If Skyrim and Hammerfall unified against the Thalmor, it'd be much more of a threat to the Thalmor than the Empire is.

I think Ulfric fought the forsworn because he has delusions of grandeur of being like Talos. He wanted to follow in Talos' footsteps.

Also, just about every conversation with him indicates he's hung up on symbols. Everything he does is for a symbolic purpose. Killing Torryg, getting the jagged crown, etc.. The Forsworn fall in this category too. And it has exactly the kind of effect he intended. You hear Nords in Markarth compare him like "Talos, on old Hroldan".

You are a disgrace to our race! I spit on your fur!

lol jokes, I have many love for ALL khajiit, as we are the beautiful race of Tamriel

Funny that when stormcloaks see me that say " Talos Guide you " while putting their hands over their hearts, or " Stormblade.. its an honor "

but if your and imperial legate you still get the " I think you are in the wrong place citizen " when you go to their camps...





You have to remember, Not every culture followed the " moral's " of things like today.

In my eyes, I see nothing wrong with it because that was their ritual , that was their way of life.

No offence but that statement reek's of ignorance. Not you personally, just that statement and again i mean no offence.

Have you forgotten your arrival in Skyrim? Ulfric was bound and gagged and seated to your right in the wagon. He was about to be summarily executed without a trial. This is the very sort of act that condemned the Empire for me. The Thalmor provided the intelligence to nab him, but as they are busy trying to eradicate the memory of another Nord hero, Talos, they certainly didn't want a martyr in Ulfric. And during the escape from Helgen, I noticed I was "friend" to one guy (Stormcloak), and "prisoner" to the other (Imperial).

The Aldmeri Dominion is a colonial power seeking to subjugate all of Skyrim to their will. They have started with outlawing one particular religion, a typical step taken by oppressors. Tullius? Rikke? They may claim they know or knew the real story, but they did nothing, nothing at all, to protect their people or culture. They simply clung to power. They even did all the dirty work for the Thalmor, the fools.

The High King? What's a title? Even Emperor is meaningless. Ulfric knows where to take the fight next. The difference is that he's willing to do it. And anyway, people always get the government they deserve, that's why there's so much apathy throughout Skyrim about the conflict.

The lamest thing I think about Stormcloaks is they're named after one guy.

It's could be compared to a situation in some banana republics. For example, if you had followed a rebel leader.. Lets call him Generalismo Batista (soon to be El Presidente Batista), and instead of being named after your country or ideals, you're just named after him. The "Batistans", or something to that effect. Same goes for joining the mafia or something. You're defined by one person or head of the family. At least Lenin didn't call everyone Leninites, when he started the Russian revolution. Or Americans didn't name themselves after Jefferson or Adams. Here, you're basically just a private military force for one guy. That's not a cause. It's just playing the part of some minion for one guy's ambitions.

No, they don't: they've all the interests in maintaining this state of uncertainity.

I believe in peace. The more you force people to work together the less chance for them to be at each others' throats. Just look at EU - by forcing everyone to be dependent on each other war becomes impossible because you can't start one without completely bulldozing your own economy.

The war on the Thalmor I can accept because it's a war they started. Defensive wars are okay for me and necessary, but inner strife over who gets to worship what god is pointless IMO. If the Stormcloaks would just shut up for a while, tag up with the Imperials against Thalmor and after ultimate victory THEN wonder what's wrong with the Empire. Not before. Now the civil war just serves the Thalmor's goals and it's easier to take out a small isolated kingdom and weakened Empire than one that is united.

The Empire signed the treaty because for all we know they were losing.

Well, if your chief defining purpose is to put someone on the throne then naming yourself after said person is actually quite rational. It's why they call the supporters of one Scottish King Jacobites versus the others.

Well, in Real Life, plenty of stupid things are irreconciable. In the case of the Empire, they won't be the one who starts the next war with the Thalmor at this moment and that means letting the Thalmor kill the citizens of Skyrim more or less at will. The Stormcloaks, justifiably, consider this unacceptable. Which, ironically, means they have to go to war before they'll war on their real enemy.

Really? You bought this game to give a NPC a hamdjob?

I'm serious now. If you all think about it, you know this isn't what you wanted. Or why you buy games. You're just defending it out of habit now, because someone has to maintain some Stormcloak "voice" on these forums. I'm pretty sure most of you saw all of the flaws yourself already.