Unfair treatement of the Argonians : V - Skyrim

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:37 am

@Albinodunmer

Holysmokes, you sure seem to know your Dunmer lore!

I have never been into playing Dunmer in prior games, but started a Dunmer nightblade in Skyrim, and out of my five Skyrim characters I am enjoying him most. He bought the Marketh house, so he could be close to the Dwemer ruins and museum there to further his study of all things Dwemer. Now I am collecting books about Dwemer and Dunmer lore for my library. I admit to not having read enough books in prior games because the sheer number of them and the length of some of them is overwhelming. But limiting my course of study to all things Dunmer and Dwemer, seems more manageble and the Dunmer have an interesting history and seem much more physically tough than the Altmer or the Bosmer, and thus better suited for a nightblade.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:58 pm

You have misinterpreted me. I am not saying all the Dunmer or all the Nords even hate each other. Of course there will be exceptions. Pointing them out does not mean anything. Some of the Dunmer have been living there for centuries and some since right after the Red Year. By now with how long they live it stands to reason some would be able to make it out of their slum. Also answer if you could why it is that a long lived race like the Dunmer could not improve themselves when they live for 200+ years? You would think in a normal situation that they would have figured something out by then right? Must be some other influence holding them back. Some kind of system maybe? Institutionalized racism perhaps? Though I did not know about the Dunmer heading to Windhelm to join the Stormcloaks, that is a nice find and I thank you for it. So, there ARE Dunmer fighting for them then? What then, is the problem the Nords are having? That not all of them are fighting?
When one can get something for free, why work at it? The nords have the issue that the dunmer in windhelm are receiving aid from the jarl but NOT reciprocating anything.

Yeah, that IS exactly what I mean. But out of curiosity have you played as a Mer race? They Nords are rude to you no matter where you go. Rolff is far from the only example in any case. Nords may not seem racist but the way the Dunmer and Argonians are kept down is. Not to mention that the Khajiit are all kept out of the cities. Seems pretty racist to me. The Nords are not above being racist or prejudiced. So yeah, of course not all of them are. But there is how many Dunmer who hate Argonians in Skyrim? 1?
I've played as an Argonian. The only one who makes any comment on my race as a negative is one person in Falkreath.

I did, your sarcasm is unwarranted, get over yourself. There is a journal or some dialogue in Windhelm describing how Ulfric has a policy with his guards to ignore all bandit parties that attack non-Nords and leave Nords alone. I would say that could harm the Dunmer who must need to get food somehow, by going to farms and/or foraging maybe even trading. It makes them feel trapped in the City as well. As for what other policies? His policy to ignore the Dunmer in the Grey-quarter and not listen to them at all is a hindrance in of itself. If they do not have the resources for something they can try to borrow or ask for some but if they do not even get a chance to make a request or are even given the time of day it is a problem. Besides if you infer a little it seems as if Ulfric could have other policies in place as well though naturally I have zero evidence of that.
Again, I ask, why is it Ulfric's responsibility to coddle the dunmer?

From what I can gather they are both guilty of slaughtering the Forsworn. Ulfric was the military leader in charge. He devised the way it was to be done in all likelihood. Yes Braig is also bad. There is also zero evidence that I am aware of that DOES suggest the Bear of Markarth has anything to do with the Thalmor.
It's a book written to appease the thalmor. Actually read it. Igmund and Braig both contradict the book.

How are they to do that hmm? They are struggling themselves. If a member leaves to fight for the Stormcloaks their family might starve. They also may not agree with the Stormcloaks and do not want to fight because they believe the Empire is the right side to support. It is not like once the Empire gets back on their feet and is strong enough to oppose the Aldmeri Dominion they won't re-establish Talos worship. The man that became Talos was the founder of the damned Empire!
Well then leave the city. This is how fuedalism works. You swear service to your lord, in return he defends his people. If you refuse his request don't be surprised if he doesn't help you out.

You said it yourself. They take up half the city. There is no way a population that takes up HALF a city would not affect its other citizens. Clearly the situation has left most of Windhelm unhappy. Ulfric should have done something about it. You honestly think half a city of Dunmer would have no effect on the rest?
You mean like genocide the dunmer? No I don't think he'd do that. Might be because he isn't a racist. And no they haven't been affecting the other citizens. Have you talked to anyone who isn't in the grey quarter? None of them are really negatively affected.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:24 am

It is most interesting in the eyes of J'rahzir. The Argonian and the Dunmer are the main concerns, all concern amongst the Tall Hairy One with the Vivid Fondness for Blue's city. Perhaps the political sphere is enthralled by this one's presence. As the Turija has once stated, Argonian may return to the Nord city of Riften. There, it is not so difficult for the Dunmer and Argonian. Why do they prosper one place and not another place?

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:16 am

Did the argonians get their home turned into a barren wasteland? And also because the nords are distrusting of beast races and high king toryyg (sp?) game the dunmer the gray quarter as respect towards the prideful race that has fallen on hard times.

Khajiit thinks the dunmers bad karma bit them in the ass, no?

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:43 am

@Albinodunmer

Holysmokes, you sure seem to know your Dunmer lore!

I have never been into playing Dunmer in prior games, but started a Dunmer nightblade in Skyrim, and out of my five Skyrim characters I am enjoying him most. He bought the Marketh house, so he could be close to the Dwemer ruins and museum there to further his study of all things Dwemer. Now I am collecting books about Dwemer and Dunmer lore for my library. I admit to not having read enough books in prior games because the sheer number of them and the length of some of them is overwhelming. But limiting my course of study to all things Dunmer and Dwemer, seems more manageble and the Dunmer have an interesting history and seem much more physically tough than the Altmer or the Bosmer, and thus better suited for a nightblade.

Yeah, I guess I do. Thanks. To be fair they seem more interesting for the most part, because they seem to have been the most fleshed out race with the most attention given to them as of yet. Might be because of MK and Bethesda reinventing the Lore in Morrowind and trying to revamp the series.

Glad to see you are enjoying their lore. There is a lot of a good AND bad in their though. Guess that is what makes them seem so relate-able for me. Looking back through History there are few if any cultures that were 100% good. Scratch that, there are NO cultures that were ever 100% good.

When one can get something for free, why work at it? The nords have the issue that the dunmer in windhelm are receiving aid from the jarl but NOT reciprocating anything.
What evidence is there that they are not reciprocating anything? Maybe the Nords, who are in their ancient capital and have lots of patriotic pride, have an unwarranted sense of entitlement that makes them think the Dunmer are just not reciprocating enough to please them? We could argue that all day but there is not enough evidence either way. IMO the Nords expect too much, in yours the Dunmer are just not doing anything.

I've played as an Argonian. The only one who makes any comment on my race as a negative is one person in Falkreath.
Try a mer race then. I have only played Dunmer out of the Mer races but everywhere I go there is at least a few Nords who are rude or disdainful to me that were not when I played either a Nord or even Imperial.

Again, I ask, why is it Ulfric's responsibility to coddle the dunmer?
How is it coddling? It is called just rule or doing your job. Make an effort to please the general population and all that? With the Dunmer having such a huge presence in Windhelm, it is almost beyond idiotic to treat them with disdain and disinterest. Like it or not the Dunmer have been part of Windhelm for 200 years if not longer and now they are nearly a majority and not just a minority. So other than basic humane reasons, it is in his best interest.

It's a book written to appease the thalmor. Actually read it. Igmund and Braig both contradict the book.
I have done the quest but do not recall anything that seems to contradict the book entirely. Of course the book is biased but is it completely unfounded? I do not recall Igmund saying anything so I may just not have the same amount of information in regards to this. I do know this though. Ulfric was designed as a character who will instill controversy. So with that in mind, I ask for your evidence about the Bear of Markarth. Specifically contradict the last parts, such as these.

Spoiler

In the wake of the aftermath of the Great War, you can imagine the backlog on stately matters the Empire had. Before a peace treaty could be resolved with the Forsworn, a militia led by Ulfric Stormcloak sieged the gates of their capital, Markarth. What happened during that battle was war, but what happened after the battle was over is nothing short of war crimes.
Every official who worked for the Forsworn was put to the sword, even after they had surrendered. Native women were tortured to give up names of Forsworn fighters who had fled the city or were in the hills of the Reach. Anyone who lived in the city, Forsworn and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. "You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips as he ordered the deaths of shopkeepers, farmers, the elderly, and any child old enough to lift a sword that had failed in the call to fight with him.
So when a "grateful" Empire accepted Ulfric's victory and sent soldiers to re-establish the rule of law in the Reach, it was no surprise that he would demand to be allowed to worship Talos freely before the Legion could enter. With chaos running through the streets of Markarth and the reports of deaths rising every day, the Empire had no choice but to grant Ulfric and his men their worship.
We allowed them to worship Talos, in full violation of the White-Gold Concordat with the Aldmeri Dominion (which recognizes the elven belief that Talos, as a human, cannot be one of the Divines). In jeopardizing the treaty that so many sacrificed for during the Great War, the Empire was wrong. But what choice did they have, I ask you? Against the Bear of Markarth, Ulfric Stormcloak, "no" is not an answer.

Thanks.

Well then leave the city. This is how feudalism works. You swear service to your lord, in return he defends his people. If you refuse his request don't be surprised if he doesn't help you out.
Are the Nords really practicing feudalism? http://www.historyonthenet.com/Medieval_Life/feudalism.htm Idk the Jarls seem to have more control of their own holds judging from the Nords history and historically the High King seems as if at best he was a first among equals. Feudalism is a bit different. Also I do not recall the citizens of Skyrim swearing service to the Jarls in the same way that feudal Lords would require. What requests are you talking about btw? Did Ulfric ask for the Dunmer to swear themselves to him? I am asking because I do not know.

You mean like genocide the dunmer? No I don't think he'd do that. Might be because he isn't a racist. And no they haven't been affecting the other citizens. Have you talked to anyone who isn't in the grey quarter? None of them are really negatively affected.
No, that is not what I was saying. Why do you think he is not racist? Or do you think he is just letting and encouraging the Nords patriotism to get to their heads so he can use them as easily managed tools to further his ends? Take your pick or provide another explanation because one or the other seems like the most obvious choices given the information we have. Why else is most of the racism in the game and the problems that the races there experience centered mostly in Windhelm? The non-nordic races seem to be doing fairly well everywhere else except there. He should have at least tried to make life easier for both his people and the Dunmer so they would get along better, maybe making a simple statement like the Dunmer are not connected in any way to the Altmer? Ulfric strikes me as the type who was educated, he would know the difference between the Thalmor and the Dunmer. He owes that much to his own citizens as well as the Dunmer as a ruler.

In game, it is hard to represent the actual situation, (especially in this type of game and for Bethesda) so saying something like "have you talked to someone not in the grey quarter" and me finding they do not have a response ready for the whole situation is a little unrealistic. You need to infer in situations where the game limits your understanding for how things would really be. No matter what you may say, I am pretty sure you would not say that a city with half a population of a foreign and alien culture would not be affected by it. Can you really deny that?

It is most interesting in the eyes of J'rahzir. The Argonian and the Dunmer are the main concerns, all concern amongst the Tall Hairy One with the Vivid Fondness for Blue's city. Perhaps the political sphere is enthralled by this one's presence. As the Turija has once stated, Argonian may return to the Nord city of Riften. There, it is not so difficult for the Dunmer and Argonian. Why do they prosper one place and not another place?

I think it is weird that most of the focus is on the Argonians and Dunmer, but then again they have conflict with each other and one is in their situation partly because of the other. Also most of the fans are Dunmer or Argonian fans. Look at the polls.

Why the Orsimer and Khajiit are ignored is kind of obvious but unfortunate. Smaller fanbases and less depth for the reasons why. The Raga and Bretons simply hate the Orsimer and they destroyed their homeland. Now they live in little fortresses throughout Skyrim worshiping Malacath. It really svcks but not many people are fans of Orsimer. The Khajiit are not allowed in Cities because Nords are very racist towards them and think they all are Skooma drug dealers and thieves. Which is effed up but is easy to understand. The Khajiit have a moderate fanbase but are just swallowed up in the wake of the Dunmer and Argonian fanbases.

The Dunmer and Argonian thing is just full of conflict from all sorts of angles though.

Sorry about that J'Rahzir. svcks when your favorite race is ignored even though they are probably experiencing some of the toughest times in Skyrim. Nomads in the middle of a Nation wide civil war and reemergence of unfriendly Dragons?

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:21 am

What evidence is there that they are not reciprocating anything? Maybe the Nords, who are in their ancient capital and have lots of patriotic pride, have an unwarranted sense of entitlement that makes them think the Dunmer are just not reciprocating enough to please them? We could argue that all day but there is not enough evidence either way. IMO the Nords expect too much, in yours the Dunmer are just not doing anything.
Because the ones that are reciprocating are the ones that are doing fine with (most) nords(Rolff is an exception). The ones complaining sit in the cornerclub all day and drink. The nords owed the dunmer nothing, and they gave them half the city anyways.

Try a mer race then. I have only played Dunmer out of the Mer races but everywhere I go there is at least a few Nords who are rude or disdainful to me that were not when I played either a Nord or even Imperial.
I'll try it out.

How is it coddling? It is called just rule or doing your job. Make an effort to please the general population and all that? With the Dunmer having such a huge presence in Windhelm, it is almost beyond idiotic to treat them with disdain and disinterest. Like it or not the Dunmer have been part of Windhelm for 200 years if not longer and now they are nearly a majority and not just a minority. So other than basic humane reasons, it is in his best interest.
So I take it you think the US should be funding Canada's housing market? Ulfric's populace is not the gray quarter.

Are the Nords really practicing feudalism? http://www.historyonthenet.com/Medieval_Life/feudalism.htm Idk the Jarls seem to have more control of their own holds judging from the Nords history and historically the High King seems as if at best he was a first among equals. Feudalism is a bit different. Also I do not recall the citizens of Skyrim swearing service to the Jarls in the same way that feudal Lords would require. What requests are you talking about btw? Did Ulfric ask for the Dunmer to swear themselves to him? I am asking because I do not know.
It's how jarldoms work.(Having read Beowulf helped in this regard). You ever wonder why the jarls won't let you live in their town until you perform a service for them?

Yes, Sutharal Atheron comments on it and says they won't get involved because it's not their war.(Fun fact, you can also overhear Ulfric trying to send alliance requests to High Rock)

No, that is not what I was saying. Why do you think he is not racist? Or do you think he is just letting and encouraging the Nords patriotism to get to their heads so he can use them as easily managed tools to further his ends? Take your pick or provide another explanation because one or the other seems like the most obvious choices given the information we have. Why else is most of the racism in the game and the problems that the races there experience centered mostly in Windhelm? The non-nordic races seem to be doing fairly well everywhere else except there. He should have at least tried to make life easier for both his people and the Dunmer so they would get along better, maybe making a simple statement like the Dunmer are not connected in any way to the Altmer? Ulfric strikes me as the type who was educated, he would know the difference between the Thalmor and the Dunmer. He owes that much to his own citizens as well as the Dunmer as a ruler.
Why are the altmer doing so well? He didn't have to say anything for them, and they ARE altmer. The dunmer/nord strife has little to do with the thalmor(Other than rolff thinking they're thalmor spies for whatever reason). Most of the problems centered in windhelm are because none of the other cities have a huge refugee population of dunmer living right next door. Ulfric doesn't get involved, he has Jorleif handle domestic issues(Because he's dealing with a war). and tells him only to bother him if there's an actual problem.

In game, it is hard to represent the actual situation, (especially in this type of game and for Bethesda) so saying something like "have you talked to someone not in the grey quarter" and me finding they do not have a response ready for the whole situation is a little unrealistic. You need to infer in situations where the game limits your understanding for how things would really be. No matter what you may say, I am pretty sure you would not say that a city with half a population of a foreign and alien culture would not be affected by it. Can you really deny that?
Sure there's effects. Most of the merchants in the city are non-nords. But seriously, short of declaring war or telling them all to leave, what are you suggesting he do? He doesn't technically have authority over them. He's not their police force. Canada is not policed by the US.

Going to do the spoiler part seperate

Spoiler

I have done the quest but do not recall anything that seems to contradict the book entirely. Of course the book is biased but is it completely unfounded? I do not recall Igmund saying anything so I may just not have the same amount of information in regards to this. I do know this though. Ulfric was designed as a character who will instill controversy. So with that in mind, I ask for your evidence about the Bear of Markarth. Specifically contradict the last parts, such as these.

In the wake of the aftermath of the Great War, you can imagine the backlog on stately matters the Empire had. Before a peace treaty could be resolved with the Forsworn,
http://imgur.com/k7BLE
http://imgur.com/nyMUy

a militia led by Ulfric Stormcloak sieged the gates of their capital, Markarth. What happened during that battle was war, but what happened after the battle was over is nothing short of war crimes.
Every official who worked for the Forsworn was put to the sword, even after they had surrendered. Native women were tortured to give up names of Forsworn fighters who had fled the city or were in the hills of the Reach. Anyone who lived in the city, Forsworn and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. "You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips as he ordered the deaths of shopkeepers, farmers, the elderly, and any child old enough to lift a sword that had failed in the call to fight with him.
http://imgur.com/anCS4
http://imgur.com/RJq4s

So when a "grateful" Empire accepted Ulfric's victory and sent soldiers to re-establish the rule of law in the Reach, it was no surprise that he would demand to be allowed to worship Talos freely before the Legion could enter. With chaos running through the streets of Markarth and the reports of deaths rising every day, the Empire had no choice but to grant Ulfric and his men their worship.
http://imgur.com/W4I5p
http://imgur.com/1GrZz

We allowed them to worship Talos, in full violation of the White-Gold Concordat with the Aldmeri Dominion (which recognizes the elven belief that Talos, as a human, cannot be one of the Divines). In jeopardizing the treaty that so many sacrificed for during the Great War, the Empire was wrong. But what choice did they have, I ask you? Against the Bear of Markarth, Ulfric Stormcloak, "no" is not an answer.
You can really feel the bias here.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:21 am

Sorry about that J'Rahzir. svcks when your favorite race is ignored

((Actually, my favorite race are Nords. I just figured it would be boring imitating a Scandinavian accent, so I do the Khajiit thing. Passes the time quite nicely, to be honest, but don't get me wrong. I love the Khajiit quite a bit, very unique. I just prefer the Nords. :3))

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:29 pm

We ought dig a big hole, throw all them filthy grey-skins and scale-backs in it, and watch them tear each other to pieces.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:05 am

I'd rather toss Rolff in there and watch the dunmer and argonians work together.

:biggrin:

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:15 pm

((Actually, my favorite race are Nords. I just figured it would be boring imitating a Scandinavian accent, so I do the Khajiit thing. Passes the time quite nicely, to be honest, but don't get me wrong. I love the Khajiit quite a bit, very unique. I just prefer the Nords. :3))

Lol I love the Dunmer the most but Argonians and Nords are a close second. It might be fun imitating the Arnold accent but not nearly as much fun as a Khajiit I think.
or
Jo'Raksa likes the Ashborn, they are most interesting. Sometimes Jo'Raksa thinks they are a bottle with too much Skooma. The Scaled ones and the Stormkin are interesting as well. Even if they do not like Jo'Raksa very much.

((how did I do?))

Because the ones that are reciprocating are the ones that are doing fine with (most) nords(Rolff is an exception). The ones complaining sit in the cornerclub all day and drink. The nords owed the dunmer nothing, and they gave them half the city anyways.
However if you take a people in you cannot expect to just succeed without help. The game makes it seem like the Dunmer were just dropped into the Grey Quarter. There are fundamental cons to that kind of thing. Uprooting is a word for it. They gave them a home but was it even filled with people? Was Windhelm depopulated before the Dunmer arrived? The Dunmer also have no connections or means to get out of the slums as it is not their city. You see this kind of behavior in many cultures introduced to a new areas. The Micronesians in Hawaii for instance got fallout radiation because of the US during its "I don't give a crap where I test nuclear bombs" phase. They have been given asylum in the United States yet they are struggling mightily to fit in to our society. The US even has programs designed to help them and it is a struggle. The Dunmer would not have any such programs and their culture is much more different from the Nords than Micronesians and the locals in Hawaii. Everyone in this thread is underselling cultural differences. Just like the Micronesians the Dunmer have few people to help them as a group. They also are not adapted to the Nordic way of life nor the climate. They also have many traditions that were used to help them deal with their environment that no longer apply. They are a people who were culturally shocked. Add to that their longevity and they are a people slow to recover from something like that. It IS till fresh in their minds, or at least if they make any sense as a culture it would be. If someone undersells the cultural shock factor frankly I consider them ignorant and misinformed. This is not targeted at you Cecliff, so please do not take it that way, I am just saying if someone undersells that point, then, well...yeah. There are more factors involved than just oh, the Dunmer are stupid and put themselves in that situation. Transplant the Nords into a similar situation in someplace like Vivec city before it was destroyed and how do you think they would have done? After say Alduin and his dragons killed 1/3 of them and drove them out of Skyrim? Empathy is important here.

So I take it you think the US should be funding Canada's housing market? Ulfric's populace is not the gray quarter.
I am not familiar with that issue so idk how to respond really. Did the US do something to the Canadians? Last I checked the Canadian housing market was doing better than the US. But the case in Windhelm seems more like the case of minorities not being given equal opportunities throughout the US history. So if you are asking if I think the US should be accountable for the way it treats minorities institutionally then yeah. It should be, and it should be doing a better job of it then it is. Despite the costs. Morality should not be measured by affordability. Though too often it is. That is a separate issue and I really do not want to get into that debate again with anyone anytime soon. All I will say is you really need to look outside the bounds of your experiences to understand the issues involved.

It's how jarldoms work.(Having read Beowulf helped in this regard). You ever wonder why the jarls won't let you live in their town until you perform a service for them? So what did the Dunmer do that enabled them to live in Windhelm in the first place if that is the case? Or was that an exception? We just know too little about this. The Dunmer were refugees. You do not go out of your way to help people and claim to be a charitable people and then complain when you stop helping the people who needed it before they get back on their feet. If you are going to help someone do not do it half assed or it will not have the results you want. However it is also true that a few of the Dunmer are ungrateful and that too is stupid. My point is that both are at fault.

Yes, Sutharal Atheron comments on it and says they won't get involved because it's not their war.(Fun fact, you can also overhear Ulfric trying to send alliance requests to High Rock)
Interesting, though this is discredited by your info about Dunmer going to join the Stormcloaks.

Why are the altmer doing so well? He didn't have to say anything for them, and they ARE altmer. The dunmer/nord strife has little to do with the thalmor(Other than rolff thinking they're thalmor spies for whatever reason). Most of the problems centered in windhelm are because none of the other cities have a huge refugee population of dunmer living right next door. Ulfric doesn't get involved, he has Jorleif handle domestic issues(Because he's dealing with a war). and tells him only to bother him if there's an actual problem.
The Altmer have been covered already by other posters. They did not come here with lots of baggage did they? In fact one works for a criminal organization and that keeps her feared and respected. The other is a famous Alchemist. The Dunmer/Nord Strife has nothing to do with the fact that historically Nords have hated all mer? Please, they have an axe that was wielded by their most celebrated Hero that is especially efficient at killing elves. This would probably not be as big a deal if the two cultures were not so different to begin with. I do not blame Ulfric for everything but he was governing before the civil war started. You keep ignoring that point. I can understand being distracted by a war but before the civil war Ulfric was doing nothing for the Dunmer people and the Dunmer specifically say they were treated better by Ulfric's father. Surely there is something in that information that seems off? http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Ulfric_Stormcloak it states that Ulfric sequestered the Dunmer and Argonians to the grey quarter and docks. Is this unfounded? It is from the wiki. I wonder why it is there.

Sure there's effects. Most of the merchants in the city are non-nords. But seriously, short of declaring war or telling them all to leave, what are you suggesting he do? He doesn't technically have authority over them. He's not their police force. Canada is not policed by the US.
Canada is not right in the middle of our country either. The Dunmer, despite the fact that they are not doing much for themselves, are not the only reason they are down in the slums. (I was in agreement with this by the way, I was just saying it is understandable that they are not doing much, much like it is harder for minorities to come up above the poverty line in the United States). There certainly seems to be some things holding them back other than just themselves. This is a polarizing issue though. Much like the Minority and White Privilege ideology in the Us. One feels like not enough is being done and the other does not know how to make things better because they do not understand the problems the minorities are going through. But in either case the fact is that the population is there and needs to be taken care of. It should not be why should I take care of the Dunmer? It is not really even a case of how, it should just be a case of trying. If Ulfric was a good leader what he should be thinking is why should I help other people that live with my own people and interact with them on a day to day basis?
Also I find Ulfric racist for more than just the Dunmer's treatment. The excuse that my people would never allow the beast races to exist near us and it is for their own safety seems far fetched. Was their evidence that the beast races were being attacked in Windhelm before hand? In all the other cities Khajiit are kept out but Argonians are fine. Why are the Argonians kept out of Windhelm proper? For their own safety seems pretty weak.

However this line of thought is pointless as I doubt even Bethesda put this much thought into the whole situation. We are just extrapolating things and trying to make them play out when the whole way the game portrays things does not make much sense to begin with. For instance, why were the Dunmer taken in and given half the city and not told they can make a tent city out in the cold? There are all kinds of things we just do not know.

One more thing that may completely discredit me is this. I have not beaten the game or any of the civil war quests. I have heard of what transpired though and since I got spoilerfied I kind of got over playing those questlines. I am fairly insightful though and have read the book. I will get to them eventually, Cecliff, you have made me dislike Ulfric a tad less though. But I will naturally retain my feelings on it till I have actually played it all through and got to them myself.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:49 am

Playing through both sides gives you a good idea of things. I thought Bear of Markarth was for the most part true at first too.

Talk to the jarls too. Make sure you talk to each of them and their replacements. There's some stormcloak jarls I absolutely hate, and the same goes for imperials.

Brunwulf will refuse to let the argonians into windhelm though. It's the culture of the city that's the problem. The nords don't particularly like them, and there's dunmer that still remember Red Year. It's a rather unfortunate situation.

Woulda been neat if the Dunmer had followed suit to what the orcs did. Coulda had some genuine interesting dunmer villages. Perhaps a couple sects based on the houses. Only problem being they probably would've been just as sparsely populated.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:44 am

Argonians.......they make excellent boots, no?

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:10 pm

I think many have said this before but I'll say it again; Wow Albiondunmer you sure know your lore! By reading your posts, I grew increasingly more accepting of the Dunmer (and increasingly ashamed of...certain comments :unsure:

). I mean I still don't like them that much and will probably never role-play a Dunmer (probably because I can't relate to them) but I have completely changed my mindset since I started this thread. Also, thanks for taking the time to explain all this to us...well me really (it seems I'm the only one here who doesn't know what he's talking about :lmao:

). Are you by any chance interested in Tolkien lore?

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:39 am

Playing through both sides gives you a good idea of things. I thought Bear of Markarth was for the most part true at first too.

Talk to the jarls too. Make sure you talk to each of them and their replacements. There's some stormcloak jarls I absolutely hate, and the same goes for imperials.

Brunwulf will refuse to let the argonians into windhelm though. It's the culture of the city that's the problem. The nords don't particularly like them, and there's dunmer that still remember Red Year. It's a rather unfortunate situation.

Woulda been neat if the Dunmer had followed suit to what the orcs did. Coulda had some genuine interesting dunmer villages. Perhaps a couple sects based on the houses. Only problem being they probably would've been just as sparsely populated.

My problem is that I think both sides are wrong to some degree. The Redguards had a point when they said if the Empire resisted a little longer the Thalmor would have stretched themselves too much and the Great War could have been reversed. Banning Talos is much more important than what it seems at face value though I doubt the everyday resident of Tamriel knows why.

I will present this as basically as I can and keep in mind my version is probably a bit off from the original theory. In theory, and I believe this one as it is backed up by MK and makes sense, Talos and gods/people like him have been the ones who keep the current kalpa/world from basically ending and then starting over as a new Kalpa. If Talos goes then the anchor holding Nirn in its current Kalpa is gone too. However in the time that belief in Talos dwindles, and the gods are formed by the belief in them and given power and structure according to those beliefs, Talos dwindles. When people stop believing in Talos he weakens and fades. If he does that enough he no longer will be a god and will likely disappear. The cycle of Kalpas past and future cycles the Aedra and Daedra into various roles eventually freeing them to wander the outer realms of mundus (I think) and the Aedra are likely tiring of their current role. Talos is holding them in place(likely) or convincing them to stay(unlikely). Basically Talos is important as [censored] to the current world and taking away the belief of him is a HUGE deal.

The Stormcloaks have a good reason for preserving Talos worship but they do not understand his mythpoeic significance. They do however make things harder on the only force that seems capable of stopping the Thalmor. The Empire. The Empire needs time to recover and then they will re-institute Talos worship and beat back the Thalmor. But how much time before Talos fades? The rebellion was bound to happen though.

I have talked to many jarls but not all. I know I have not talked to a single replacement Jarl unless those include people I have already met in the game somewhere else. It seems I have some playing to do.

Brunwulf actually says that? And he states there are Dunmer that still remember the Red Year? If that is true then clearly BGS intended more for the situation in Windhelm but just ran out of time. It seems woefully underdeveloped.

Lol I agree. I was actually discussing that in the mods forum. Some guy called Gallowglass is thinking of making an http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1350247-what-would-want-in-an-ashlander-mod/. Obviously something that will take time if he plans on using traditional Dunmer objects which seems to be the gist of the mod. I dunno if the guy is actually going to do it or not but I was having fun discussing it. Not the same as the houses but I think it is time that all the old Great Houses of Morrowind died off. They only hurt the Dunmer in my opinion. Maybe some new ones would be cool or the old ones with new ideals.

I think many have said this before but I'll say it again; Wow Albiondunmer you sure know your lore! By reading your posts, I grew increasingly more accepting of the Dunmer (and increasingly ashamed of...certain comments :unsure:

). I mean I still don't like them that much and will probably never role-play a Dunmer (probably because I can't relate to them) but I have completely changed my mindset since I started this thread. Also, thanks for taking the time to explain all this to us...well me really (it seems I'm the only one here who doesn't know what he's talking about :lmao:

). Are you by any chance interested in Tolkien lore?

No problem, glad I persuaded you to look beyond the bad though. I never liked Dunmer initially until I roleplayed one that rebelled against his culture in Morrowind and rejected Slavery and racism. Really if you just ignore the Xenophobia and Slavery of the Dunmer they are actually really cool. So playing as a Dunmer raised with their culture but that also rejects their more racist beliefs is quite rewarding. A little similar to Drizzt Do'Urden but still fun. My first character was a Nord I think lol. The racials in morrowind for a Nord were just badass. Like 100% resist frost and 50% resist shock or something like that.

Well I enjoyed the books(Hobbit-Return of the King) and later the movies I never really got into Tolkiens lore too much. I read the Silmarilion(?) a long time ago so I have a basic idea of how the world works but that is about the extent I have. Oh I also played a few games for them as well. Very interesting stuff but for whatever reason it just never grabbed me like TES lore did. Oh and trust me, I don't know that much in comparison to some people. The Lore forum is where it is at. Those guys trump the crap out of me just about everywhere. Dunmer lore might be the only place I could begin to hold my ground.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:41 pm

Lol I love the Dunmer the most but Argonians and Nords are a close second. It might be fun imitating the Arnold accent but not nearly as much fun as a Khajiit I think.
or
Jo'Raksa likes the Ashborn, they are most interesting. Sometimes Jo'Raksa thinks they are a bottle with too much Skooma. The Scaled ones and the Stormkin are interesting as well. Even if they do not like Jo'Raksa very much.

((how did I do?))

((You did fine. Keep typing like that, and it will grow into an addiction. As for the Awnald impersonation "NMZRG'GRAAAAAH DRAGON, GET DOWN!!! I'm da dragon born! I come from da future to save you, Martin Septim! THe Machines!" "...machines?" "NO!!! Not machines! Elves!" "...elves now?" No, actually its DA AMULET OF ANCIENT POWER!!! DON'T PUT IT ON!!!" "Bro, I just trade [censored]! Get out of here before I have you deported." "NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!"

Not so fun, but I suppose it can make a point in the long run. :3))

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:09 am

((You did fine. Keep typing like that, and it will grow into an addiction. As for the Awnald impersonation "NMZRG'GRAAAAAH DRAGON, GET DOWN!!! I'm da dragon born! I come from da future to save you, Martin Septim! THe Machines!" "...machines?" "NO!!! Not machines! Elves!" "...elves now?" No, actually its DA AMULET OF ANCIENT POWER!!! DON'T PUT IT ON!!!" "Bro, I just trade [censored]! Get out of here before I have you deported." "NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!"

Not so fun, but I suppose it can make a point in the long run. :3))

Lmao! I could totally hear the voice with Arnold there. I wish there was a way to talk through text in that raspy Dunmer accent from Morrowind.

"Wake up! We are here!" bump. "Damned N'wah navigator!" Loved that voice.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:30 pm

Lmao! I could totally hear the voice with Arnold there. I wish there was a way to talk through text in that raspy Dunmer accent from Morrowind.

"Wake up! We are here!" bump. "Damned N'wah navigator!" Loved that voice.

I know, that was my favorite Dunmer voice ever. The new ones piss me off. First a fruit loop Elf voice that fits the other Elves fine. Just not Dark Elves. THEN they have Australians. Good lord. ><))

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:35 am

I know, that was my favorite Dunmer voice ever. The new ones piss me off. First a fruit loop Elf voice that fits the other Elves fine. Just not Dark Elves. THEN they have Australians. Good lord. ><))

Some make me think Scottish Dunmer. I wish we had the rough rugged voices back it suits them better.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:47 am

Lol I agree. I was actually discussing that in the mods forum. Some guy called Gallowglass is thinking of making an http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1350247-what-would-want-in-an-ashlander-mod/. Obviously something that will take time if he plans on using traditional Dunmer objects which seems to be the gist of the mod. I dunno if the guy is actually going to do it or not but I was having fun discussing it. Not the same as the houses but I think it is time that all the old Great Houses of Morrowind died off. They only hurt the Dunmer in my opinion. Maybe some new ones would be cool or the old ones with new ideals.

That would be awesome, and really with a name like Gallowglass how could you not be. :biggrin:

I don't recall Brunwulf saying anything about the Red Year but I'll go back and check. edit- He doesn't have any dialogue about the Red Year as jarl that I can see.

No problem, glad I persuaded you to look beyond the bad though. I never liked Dunmer initially until I roleplayed one that rebelled against his culture in Morrowind and rejected Slavery and racism. Really if you just ignore the Xenophobia and Slavery of the Dunmer they are actually really cool. So playing as a Dunmer raised with their culture but that also rejects their more racist beliefs is quite rewarding. A little similar to Drizzt Do'Urden but still fun. My first character was a Nord I think lol. The racials in morrowind for a Nord were just badass. Like 100% resist frost and 50% resist shock or something like that.

They are irredeemably badass which is why I like them second to Nords. Though orcs won me over in Skyrim, too.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:30 am

I know, that was my favorite Dunmer voice ever. The new ones piss me off. First a fruit loop Elf voice that fits the other Elves fine. Just not Dark Elves. THEN they have Australians. Good lord. ><))

Such a pain in the ass. I am actually pretty damned good at doing the Dunmer voice too. especially good ole Jiub's. It is not that hard to do and is easy to charge with emotion if need be, though it does sound the best in a stoic voice. I really do not understand why they got rid of it. Maybe they wanted to cut down on the Dunmer fans and give the other races a shot?

Some make me think Scottish Dunmer. I wish we had the rough rugged voices back it suits them better.

I have not really detected anything overtly australian or scottish. To me they sound like a new accent that just really does not match them. Then there are a few that do, but they are rare. Now the beast races have the best voice actors imo...kind of a big svck it to the Dunmer in some ways lmao. It is weird that pre-release the Dunmer thief in Bleak Falls Barrow has the raspy voice. Falling out with the original voice actor? It really is not even that hard to imitate once you get it right the first time.

That would be awesome, and really with a name like Gallowglass how could you not be. :biggrin:

I don't recall Brunwulf saying anything about the Red Year but I'll go back and check. edit- He doesn't have any dialogue about the Red Year as jarl that I can see.

They are irredeemably badass which is why I like them second to Nords. Though orcs won me over in Skyrim, too.

I hope it gets made lol. I really do. Mods are going to save what my unrealistic expectations crushed lol.

Damn that would have made at least one direct mention of the Red Year like it was a significant event. I mean for how much it impacted the Dunmer they hardly mention the damned thing.

Yup, does not get much better than powerful spell blades who wear bonemold and have domesticated huge insects and reptilian critters. Go to the fanfiction forum here and look at the silt strider thread. There is a video in the OP that is just incredible. Just decided to http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1351887-dunmer-cullture-striders-hd-video/ you guys. All I am going to say is the Dunmer have living aircraft.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:47 am

((You did fine. Keep typing like that, and it will grow into an addiction. As for the Awnald impersonation "NMZRG'GRAAAAAH DRAGON, GET DOWN!!! I'm da dragon born! I come from da future to save you, Martin Septim! THe Machines!" "...machines?" "NO!!! Not machines! Elves!" "...elves now?" No, actually its DA AMULET OF ANCIENT POWER!!! DON'T PUT IT ON!!!" "Bro, I just trade [censored]! Get out of here before I have you deported." "NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!"

Not so fun, but I suppose it can make a point in the long run. :3))

"Get to the ~~choppa~~ dragon!" :biggrin:

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:32 pm

Why are the altmer doing so well? He didn't have to say anything for them, and they ARE altmer. The dunmer/nord strife has little to do with the thalmor(Other than rolff thinking they're thalmor spies for whatever reason). Most of the problems centered in windhelm are because none of the other cities have a huge refugee population of dunmer living right next door. Ulfric doesn't get involved, he has Jorleif handle domestic issues(Because he's dealing with a war). and tells him only to bother him if there's an actual problem.
The Altmer have been covered already by other posters. They did not come here with lots of baggage did they? In fact one works for a criminal organization and that keeps her feared and respected. The other is a famous Alchemist. The Dunmer/Nord Strife has nothing to do with the fact that historically Nords have hated all mer? Please, they have an axe that was wielded by their most celebrated Hero that is especially efficient at killing elves. This would probably not be as big a deal if the two cultures were not so different to begin with. I do not blame Ulfric for everything but he was governing before the civil war started. You keep ignoring that point. I can understand being distracted by a war but before the civil war Ulfric was doing nothing for the Dunmer people and the Dunmer specifically say they were treated better by Ulfric's father. Surely there is something in that information that seems off? http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Ulfric_Stormcloak it states that Ulfric sequestered the Dunmer and Argonians to the grey quarter and docks. Is this unfounded? It is from the wiki. I wonder why it is there.

that really strikes me strange because there was a book written by a dunmer stating that they themselves are the reason for them living in the grey quarter as a way to seperate themselves away form the nordic population that didnt appreciate the dunmer traditions or ways and that they chose windhelm as a symbolic up yours to the nords. And also didnt the king give them the snow qaurter so i dont see hwo Ulfric would sequestered them there if they are alrdy living there for free.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:31 pm

I don't recall Brunwulf saying anything about the Red Year but I'll go back and check. edit- He doesn't have any dialogue about the Red Year as jarl that I can see.

He does mention that he can't let the argonians in because he fears for their safety. The red year part was an assumption given the lifespan of dunmer can be anywhere from 150-4000 years. Somewhere around 300-400 is typical. Without the blight/ash I think they're a bit better off on their lifespans.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:54 pm

He does mention that he can't let the argonians in because he fears for their safety. The red year part was an assumption given the lifespan of dunmer can be anywhere from 150-4000 years. Somewhere around 300-400 is typical. Without the blight/ash I think they're a bit better off on their lifespans.

He only talks about their safety in the context of Nords, though. Brunwulf is a bitter man. I think he'll be a disastrous jarl. Ulfric has his faults, but he sees the situation more clearly. You don't do beautification projects when the enemy is breathing down your neck.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:50 am

He only talks about their safety in the context of Nords, though. Brunwulf is a bitter man. I think he'll be a disastrous jarl. Ulfric has his faults, but he sees the situation more clearly. You don't do beautification projects when the enemy is breathing down your neck.

If the one known as Dragonborn forges a truce amongst the Tall Hairy One with the Vivid Fondness for Blue and the Short Loyal Imperial, then perhaps the Tall Hairy One may address the Dunmer within said time.