To me Argonians always seem animal, below the status of a human or an elf, sadly...

So you are deliberately being close minded about the subject because you find it fun to hate on a fictional race? Got it. How did the Dunmer in any way get off easy though? Are you just being deliberately close minded because you got offended that some Dunmer enslaved one of you favorite races 200 years prior to Skyrim? Or do you really believe that the sins of some members of a race mean that every member of that race is culpable? Have you even played the other games or do you just take anything people tell you at face value and think an entire culture can be generalized like you are doing?

What the Argonians have been through is irrelevant 200 years later when the effects on their homeland from those events are non-existent. The Dunmer did not even treat most of their slaves that badly so where you get your sadism idea from idk. Nor is there anything really talking about the Dunmer loving torture. Now you are just throwing completely unsubstantiated BS out there.

Of course you would like the An-Xiheel, even though they are probably one of the worst things for the Argonians. The An-Xiheel are the Argonian equivalent to the Thalmor in Black Marsh. They are an extremist group that claimed responsibility for saving Black Marsh from the Oblivion crisis and then proceeded to purge Argonia of any Argonians that thought differently than them, and then in conjunction with the Hist changed the Argonians as a people and sent them off to war hyped up on all kinds of propaganda. I like Argonians but I truly dislike the An-Xiheel. Just wait till we actually have a game in Black Marsh and you will see how the Argonians are no less or better than the Dunmer. Till we actually see the Argonians as they behave in Black Marsh we really cannot judge them.

Yeah, because the Dunmer are just completely evil cut and paste villains that are incapable of good right? Just a cookie cutter race of bad guys. All are bad right? So explain why a race that looks down on other races would ever bother to even begin to think of fighting to free them? Why would the everyday Dunmer even listen to the people who suggested freeing the slaves if they thought they were inferior or lesser creatures? Surely the houses involved had ulterior motives, when do political entities not? That does not mean the people who supported the freedom of the "lesser" races efforts mean nothing.

Get out of your zone of unwarranted bigotry and actually look at the race as a whole. They have some good and some bad. It just so happens that ONE of their traditions, that was instituted and backed by their religion, is a very sensitive and distasteful issue and practice. Slavery. So do you agree then that the white society of the slave plantation era are all bad evil people with few if any exceptions? That none of them have any redeeming qualities what so ever and none of them disapproved of slavery or thought that the way their institution treated other races was wrong? Because honestly the comparison is completely accurate. Maybe you just only see the bad and refuse to see the good.

Nothing to really back that up other than a few Dunmer who are arrogant pricks. None of the Dunmer in Oblivion or Skyrim acted that way very often did they? There were a few but not many. Yeah, some Dunmer are really, really bad.

The Dunmer do not all look down on other races and view them as inferior. Some do. There are people that do the same thing in our world but that does not mean all of their people are like that or even most are like that. You really need to stop stereotyping, one does not represent the whole. I only hope you do not do that irl too.

The whole Nord swing a battle axe vs a Mage thing? Are yous serious? Well you would lose your money. First off Dunmer are unusually strong for their size and they are accounted great Warriors as well as mages. A normal Dunmer Warrior would easily be up and up with a normal Nord or Orc. In fact the Dunmer have dealt with and defeated both those races through force of arms throughout their history. Even before the days of the Tribunal and their rise to power. A mage pretty much would always trump the warrior in any case. If a Nord gets blasted with lightning or fire before reaching the mage they would die. They would not survive a fireball to the face. If they got close a mage could use any number of spells to nullify their attack as well. Shield spells, reflect damage spells, wards etc etc. A warrior can only defeat a mage by outsmarting them. Rare is the warrior that can do so. Not every warrior in Tamriel is as good as the Nerevarines, Champions of Cyrodiil and Dovahkiins. This is just a pointless argument.

I have explained already in my previous posts, in detail, pretty much exactly why the Dunmer think the way they do. Their sense of superiority has only been reinforced by the way they kind of easily dominated all those around them. They also are very long lived which presents its own set of arrogance. In some cases they are very justified in their pride. Not so in others. Did you even read my posts about that btw?? In short, their excellence led to their arrogance as is the case with many people who become successful. Look at many skilled athletes. How often do they condescend to those who are not as skilled as themselves in their sport? The Nords and most of the other races are not much different at all. Many of them look down on the other races just as much as the Dunmer did. However that hardly means they all do that. Again, because I still do not think you get it, the few do not represent the whole. How you consider any people unworthy is beyond me.
Actually, with the longevity of the Mer, many of the Dunmer in Windhelm probably ARE Red Year(and everything else) Survivors. However they have had enough time to get over the shock at least. But they are still a people living off another cultures charity and that same culture looks down on them and treats them like unwelcome guests. Do you have any idea how that would feel? Especially when they are a proud people in the homeland of their ancient enemies? The Argonians are having a hard time as well but they are a community that has not had their identity and culture broken. You may not think that is a big deal but it is. I live in a place where cultures often arrive here, or in some case exist here, nearly broken or in a state of unrest. It is ironic because people view my home as some lovely paradise full of Aloha but it is full of many, many problems that are always underexposed in the media. Look up Micronesians and Hawaiians and see what has happened to their people and culture because of the United States. That is just the tip of the iceberg. The only people who could even compare to what the Dunmer have been through in TES are the Orsimer.

The Empire thing was pure speculation. We know Argonia split with the Empire prior to the Red Year. The Nords and Dunmer at least were not mentioned as doing so. Valenwood and Elsweyr also split from the Empire almost right after the events of the Oblivion Crisis as well. It is kind of hard to turn away refugees from a nation that just got destroyed though, people are not all bad, most Nords probably have a heart so they would take pity even on an old enemy. The hatred of other races in TES is not as widespread as it seems. As a nation you have to keep up your image. I imagine the Nordic Jarls felt pressured to help the Dunmer in some way. One of the only reasons the Nords probably helped the Dunmer was because they felt a political reason for doing so. That does not take the meaning out of that act though. That the Nords gave the Dunmer a home when they had none must have been pretty damned humbling for some of the Dunmer. The Nords did something very generous. However the events after that is where the problems arise. If you expect a people to be grateful for land when they are being treated badly on it something is wrong. However the treatment is fairly recent and was mostly due to Ulfric from they way the NPCs comment on it. Before that they and the Argonians were treated better or so we would imagine. However Ulfric seems to be trying to make the Nords Nationalistic to the point of extremism. If anyone thinks people should get off their land and that they have no right to live there at all when they have been there for some time, then they are completely unreasonable and in the wrong. People have a right to live. Especially if they have been there for some time. Evicting innocent people is a wrong, even if their ancestors were bad people. Like the United States for example with the whole illegal overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom.

every true friend of the argonians did, but the world does not react to anything you do so they are never shown to go into the city (or if my theory [which, given the evidence is plausible] is right or not)

The An-Xiheel are ruthless Argonains. Their people fear them they are a band of thugs that conrol Blackmarsh by force.
It was detailed some in Infernal City and Lord of Souls. They are not who I would want to lead my people.
The Dunmer had the Tribunal for a very long while and they have Azura, sure she can be selfish but she protects her own regardless.
The Dunmer are adapting and moving away from old traditions such as slavery and ancester worship.

Pretty much. I really like the Argonians, at least what little we know of them, and the An-Xiheel just seem bad for them through and through.

I wonder if the Devs plan on switching the angles and making the Argonians seem very scummy and the Dunmer the victims? That would be kind of ironic I think.

I think I read somewhere that an axe wielding crazy person can beat a mage in combat....

all i have to say is LOL

not really not really by a long shot (in TES universe anyways )

I really like the Argonians as well.

I think they plan to take it the other way and have the An-Xiheil supress their own people and try to control them even more, it was already like that in Lilmoth. That would be ironic after the Argonian attack on Morrowind and Vvardenfell. I see intrigue there when we go to Black Marsh.

It's possible, but none of them talk about Morrowind as a place they've ever seen.
But this is part of the problem, as a few people point out- their pride is hindering some of them from making something of themeselves. The situation in Windhelm is a two-way street. I do agree that Ulfric is not helping matters, but the Dunmers' long-standing problems in Skyrim are all in all pretty mild when put up against other events even during game time. Yet to read the threads on the subject you'd think that there were pogroms in the streets.

I hate all of windhelm for the racism in general. Yet so many different races live there...

Great you now are starting to see Ulfric is a part of the issue. He will favor the Nords, and the Dunmer are a proud people that are not used to what situation they are in right now. There is a few old families here Hlaalu and Telvanni and a few others I am sure whos family has lived very wealthy lives for generations. They should come to terms about something, but we will have to see in the future on who really wins the civil war to understand the state of power and who will control Skyrim.

Actually some do. Some mention going back to Mournhold and such things.

Yes their pride IS indeed hurting them but we cannot look at them like they are human with human tendencies. They are a long lived people. They are incredibly proud of what they are. It is a slower process of getting over things when you are a much longer lived race. You just do some things slower. Are the Dunmer hurting themselves? Some are. Are some of them not doing what they should be doing? No they are not. But it at least is understandable why they are not.

Well I think Dunmer should just die. So there. The Argonians have WAY better combat abilities BTW, I don't recall the Dunmer turning back an army spawned from Oblivion. . If Dunmer decided to invade Blackmarsh, they would just die of disease or sink in swamps and all the Argonian warriors would have to do is sit back and smoke some skooma. Also, I do hope you realize I'm just messing around right? No hard feelings.

They work way harder than anyone in the [censored] city for Shor's sake!

Isn't that what everyone here is doing? Besides man it's just fictional. FUN. NOTHING ELSE. And by the length of your posts, it seems you are taking this way more seriously than anyone else.

Well in my own personal universe...

That`s how you defeat racism.

u know, remembering playing morrowind and being in the dunmers home country......i could care one fig less of the plight of the dunmers. They got a rent free house and most of those are two stories inside a walled city from the nords, and yes its in the slums BUT BUT play morrowind and where were the nords located at? In the slums and bout 95% of thier houses were just little rickety shacks AND on the out skirts of the towns.... The dunmer got the same postion brought on them BUT its a much better position AND free housing and they still complaining....


sorry, just dont really have the sympathy for them, almost like karmas biting thrm in the ass and they still getting off better than all the other races they abused.

Well guess I was 100% correct that you were just close minded about the Dunmer and you are blinded by your hatred for a fictional race. Guess that speaks of MK's ability to construct a real culture. Also Bethesda's as well. I mean you may kid and so do I but you certainly seem to have a strong dislike for the Dunmer. I am not angry at all here. I am just being informative. I just dislike misinformation and well tbh I like to debate and argue.

Yeah... the Dunmer only turned back like, Mehrunes Dagon himself, in the second era. They defeated the Skyrim Empire with all it's great and powerful tongues AND the effing Dwemer with all their technology! They halted the strength of The Empire that conquered every other culture, not once but twice. Both empires of which were led by legendary Dragonborn figures, Reman Cyrodiil and Tiber Septim. Tiber Septim became a god later too. Talos was his name. You want to know why the Empire let the Dunmer keep their slaves and all their traditions? Because the empire deeply respected the Dunmer's fighting ability and really would rather not suffer the losses they had suffered the first time the empire tangled with Morrowind. Which was 80 years of a bloody stalemate.They easily defeated the Argonians in every conflict except one. For that one conflict they had been severely weakened by outside forces like volcanoes, Invasions from Oblivion and meteors and internal forces like a civil war and the loss of their religion. I hope you are not thinking the 2nd Arnesian War was something to brag about, nor something that is in anyway representative of either groups fighting strengths. The Dunmer also have much better combat abilities in most of the games. Skyrim being the exception. Of course even then Histskin might get canceled out by constant fire damage from Ancestral Wrath and the Dunmer have 50% resist fire and better skill bonuses for combat. Dunmer are also used to disease as well as they live in Swampy conditions(southern Morrowind is nearly identical to Black Marsh) and dealt with Blight Storms filled with diseases for hundreds of years. Not to mention they have been living next to Argonia for thousands of years and by now are probably the race most familiar with Black marsh other than the Argonians on account of all that slaving they did back in the day. They have probably mapped out a good portion of Black Marsh and figured out ways to attack it years ago but never felt it would be worth the cost.

You have your opinion and that is cool but that is not substantiated with anything except one single event, that the Argonians knew was coming. They stopped the Daedra just by being modified suicidal mobs that basically poured into the Oblivion gates until the Daedra said wtf and closed the gates. Sure it is impressive that they closed the gates but they did not do it alone. They had help from the Hist. Who modified and prepared the Argonians for the conflict. The Dunmer got their ass kicked by the Daedra during the Oblivion Crisis because they had been weakened from Civil War and all the events of Morrowind. Hardly comparable. It is like pitting a big weakened and sickly guy against a healthy big guy and claiming the healthy one is clearly better than the sickly one. There are other factors to consider. Try again.

Do people even try to substantiate their claims anymore?

I noticed you deliberately left out the last part of my comment where I clearly stated I was kidding around. Savvy. Also, my statement "Well I think Dunmer should just die. So there." (followed by a classy smiley-face ) was meant to illustrate that I could argue on the same base terms as the guy I was replying to, who seems to have an inherent hate against the Argonians and thinks they're only fit to be slaves. In some ways he represents all that is wrong with the Dunmer eh? Naw I kid.

Missed the last bit as I was not done with my post lol. You may want to brush up on your Lore before making erroneous statements in the future though. Well if you do not want to look bad in the forums where no one knows who you are and most really do not give two [censored] if you know lore.

There really is no reason to just lump all the Dunmer into just one boat. The same with the guy saying all Argonians should be boots/slaves or whatever. He is just generalizing as well and is likely reacting to all the Dunmer hate you were spewing throughout the thread. He certainly is not correct at all though neither were you for most of this thread.

Individuals are individuals, even in video game fiction, not people that are culpable for their races actions. Hmm well, you seem much less erm...defensive than before. In a recent post you were saying that all Argonians are better at combat than the Dunmer. Care to carry on the argument from where I left off in the post you quoted? Would love to see you back up some of your points with some actual information.

I wasn't lying when I said I enjoy debating.

Hmmmm well, maybe they aren't the best warriors of Skyrim but they sure are fanatic. I mean, they rushed the Oblivion Gates so hard the Daedra lieutenants were like "[censored] this" and had to close them for fear of being overrun. Also I doubt any army could beat them in their native terrain seeing how they adapted perfectly. And you can't blame them for following the An-Xileel, seeing as under their leadership (well the leadership of the Hist anyway) Blackmarsh was able to handle the Oblivion threat so well. But since you know so much about lore (no sarcasm meant), I would be grateful if you'd elaborate on your dislike for the aforementioned political party.

I've taken to refering to the An-Xileel in shorthand as "Argonian Stormcloaks," with the major difference being that the Empire has traditionally not been any help at all to Black Marsh. Perhpas not an accurate generalization, but...

I have no doubt that if the Argonians were in a conflict that took place in Black Marsh with any other race, the amount of effort to conquer them would not be worth it to their aggressors. However that does not mean Black Marsh is impregnable. But it is the most impregnable of all the provinces imo. If the Argonians were determined to fight to the end then yeah, the process would just be a damned nightmare for anyone trying to invade. Vietnam comes to mind.

About the An-Xiheel. It was a feeling that I got while reading the Infernal City. Keep in mind this is mostly what i remember from the book and is in part some of my own interpretation. We unfortunately do not have all that much to go on in terms of information.
They definitely do not sound like some heroic group that came just to save the day. They sound like they have their own agenda and I am very suspicious of what that is. It seems to be hinted that the An-Xiheel also were kidnapping non-argonians and imperial friendly argonians and killing them or torturing them for not believing in them. At least that is what i remember. I am pretty sure that last part about torturing might be my imagination though. They seem like the Argonian equivalent to the Thalmor, even taking power during the Oblivion Crisis, then reprogramming the Argonian people through the Hist trees and then immediately setting upon their own agenda which just happens to be limiting the freedom of Argonians and non-argonians, and destroying the pretty much already destroyed Dunmer people. They also seem very racist. That I do not like.

"The An-Xileel are a political party in Black Marsh formed sometime during the Oblivion Crisis, comprised primarily, if not entirely, of Argonians. They supported Black Marsh's independence from the Empire and were said to spread anti-Imperial propaganda, capturing prisoners of war. Many Argonians firmly held the belief that the An-Xileel were the sole reason that Mehrunes Dagon failed to conquer Black Marsh during the Oblivion Crisis." http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:An-Xileel

What it comes down to is that as an Argonian and Dunmer fan I dislike the An-Xiheel and what they SEEM to represent.

Interesting, on one hand we have a comparison to the Stormcloaks and on the other, to the Thalmor. The first one I could live with but the latter, I find unsettling. I hope that you experience Albiondunmer, is yet another case of the books in TES providing misinformation (which they seem to be so fond of doing).

Well, here's how I see it:

Dunmer most likely came before those Argonian workers (200 years ago). The Dunmer already took up what little property was left in the city. The Argonians are not in the employ of the Stormcloaks or East Empire company, rather a bigoted Nord shipping manager. The Argonians waged a bloody war against the Dark Elves, massacreing them and taking control of their land. Keeping them cramped together in the same area would cause problems much more severe than having the Argonians complain about their [censored] pay and not being allowed in the city.