I think its the unrest of the people in Windhelm, apperantly nobody wants them in there.

lol, blackwood company had multiple races.. remember?

the dunmer people didn't stop slavery, it was that one king. and even then they still continued to slave other races..

I can already tell that your comment is biased, as you love dunmer, and my comments and mind are biased, as i love both beast races.

and ( jackie chan uncle voice ) ONE MORE TING

the Argonains didn't sell their own kind to slavery, some did , but Dunmer kidnapped beast races that were travelling and slaved them...

and i agree, Argonians aren't " innocent " its just that Slavery to our minds ( and i mean us as humans, not RP a Game Race ) is seen as a really really REALLY evil and bad thing

This will be a long post so get comfortable as many people on this forum, especially the OP, seem quite ignorant of the Lore. Which is really not all that important except for when someone is trying to generalize in the games lore and is wrong. If you want to hate on a fictional race at least be justified in your reason for doing so. Now I am not saying you are ignorant, just ignorant of the inner workings of a fantasy world that does not exist and is based on a video game. Hardly something to get offended over. However I cannot think of a better word for ignorant so I apologize if that sounds rude.

Who do you think helped procure the Hist? The Argonian members... Who endorsed the use of the Hist? The Argonians did not seem to object to it.

Two Great houses, ironically Hlaalu and Dres fought Indoril and Redoran in a bloody civil war over the issue of slavery. Redoran and Indoril were very temple based houses. They were defeated and slavery was abolished in Morrowind prior to the events of Oblivion and at least several years prior to the Red Year. There is no evidence slavery continued as an institution by any of the Dunmer other than maybe some rogue slaving parties who could probably not forget the traditions they lived with for centuries. That surely does not excuse them though. I think the only evidence of that is a rumor in Oblivion too. Which also happens to be one I never heard. I don't really doubt it but could you provide proof that the Dunmer did indeed continue sending slave parties to Black Marsh? I cannot seem to be able to find it.

I am not being biased at all. Lol I really like the Beast races. Hell I think I like every race for the most part, well except for those Altmer scum...jk the Thalmor svck but the Altmer are pretty awesome sometimes. Since I like the Beast races and the Dunmer specifically I look at it from a more neutral standpoint.

Look up the lore. Seriously, it is all there. Yeah the Dunmer did bad things but not all of them did. In fact most didn't even participate in slavery. Some actively fought against it in Morrowind. It was mostly just the great houses and the temple instigating their old outdated traditions. I am not saying the Dunmer are saints by a long shot but people give them a hard time that some of them deserve but then pretend the Argonians and Khajiit are all saints when they are far from it. They are all equally capable of being bad and good.

Hell, there are rumors the Argonians started the Knahaten Flu that wiped out whole races and entire cultures in Black Marsh. The Kothringi, silver skinned humans and the Lilmothiit, a vulpine(fox-like) beast race, as well as several others. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Argonia Scroll down about 2/3 of the way or read all of it. The only species that survived was reptilian in nature. Or Argonian. Slightly suspicious. Even more so when you look into it further. Pretty bad right? That is if you take it at face value. Supposedly they were oppressed by many enemies. However does that justify wiping out everyone not of the same stock as themselves? Not at all. I mean it is said to be a rumor but when you look at all the context it is kind of hard not to think they caused it, even if I want to doubt it. Especially since most of the Argonians interactions with humans were with Pirates and such types at that time. Their solution to those threats? Genocide? But that was likely at the hands of just one Argonian. I am sure not all of them would approve of that. Though there are probably quite a few that would.

Just like most people have differing opinions the Argonians are just as capable of being bad. It is very weird to me that anyone thinks they are all goody two shoes. If they were, they would be the most boring race out there. Good and bad is what makes any race interesting. But some Argonian fans think they are these lizard folks that are all oppressed and such sad sob stories with hearts of gold. Nope, they are just like everyone else except they are lizards and worship sithis worshiping trees that can control their minds from time to time if they are within range. Which is a very interesting symbiotic relationship, but it begs the questions of how the Hist view the Argonians, as tools or as children? Whether the Hist care about anyone except the Argonians and even if they care about the Argonians? After all they would naturally hate every other race as the other races are descendents of the Ehlnofey who destroyed most of the Hist when the Hist stood to the side in the great Ehlnofey wars. This makes the Argonians the only race that is of differing descent than the others.

If some Argonians sold their own into slavery, then the Argonians sold their own into slavery. Unless you want to say since many Dunmer did not own slaves then non of the Dunmer were slavers. You want to toss that out there? Didn't think so. Besides it was an entire species of Argonian.

"Archeins: During the era when other races tried to put plantations in Argonia, Archeins were very powerful, and made fortunes by selling other Argonians into slavery. Since the other races realized Argonia is unfit for plantations, they have gone bankrupt."

To further that, to say all Dunmer had slaves or even supported slavery is being willfully close minded. They didn't. It was an institution that was heavily enforced by the Great Houses AND the Temple. Most were indoctrinated by that system just like certain unnamed religions and goevernments in our world created the idea of race and encouraged the enslavement of other "Lesser" races. Do you blame the culprits or the victims? There are two classes of victims there. The ignorant and the abused. The common Dunmer were ignorant and the Argonians AND others like Khajiit were the abused. I will let you guess who the culprits are.

Personally I think Genocide is worse than Slavery but both are obviously bad and really you cannot hold a race accountable for something a member of their race did. It is not like it is their fault. Unless of course it is and then kill em, kill em with fire! Errr, might want to try lightning on the Dunmer.

Dear god that was a book. Hope the 3-4 of you that actually read through it enjoyed it.

TL;DR, everyone, even the downtrodden beast races are capable of being good and bad and that is supported by Lore.

"Argonians are the savage half-men of the southern marshes. Our peoples used to keep them as slaves, but they are useless. The settled people still keep them as slaves to grub in the soil. They are dirty and wicked, and we should drive them all back into the swamps they came from." - Ashlanders

"Argonians are cunning, savage beasts incapable of enlightenment. They are blasphemous travesties of nature, with unspeakable foulness in their private and family urges. They are fit only for service, and only when guided by a stern hand can they avoid abomination." - Temple

"These people are our ancient enemies. Like all man races, they are of inferior blood, but otherwise are human in every respect. Are they capable of enlightenment? Do they have souls? Who can say?" - Temple


It's really not surprising that the Dunmer aren't particularly welcome. That does not, however, make it right. What does it say about the Nords when they choose base conflict over forgiveness or acceptance? Their gift of the Snow Quarter is as much a gift as if I went out and told someone "I got you a present. It's a boot I found in a garbage dump. Now be thankful for it."

It's still a gift, but it's still a dirty boot.

Albinodunmer, not to discount your argument, but the Dunmer kept slaves who were Dunmer, and I think your view of the abolition to be a little rosy -- I though it was pretty clear that aboltion was a convenient by-product of Helseth's machinations. And, not to delve into uncomfortable real-world examples, but merely outlawing slavery does little for treatment.

I believe the real issue with the non-Temple Dunmer is less indoctrination and more willful belief. A good deal of Dunmer culture (and Elven and Nordic culture) comes down to pride -- how can we prove how much better we are than anyone else? Then it moves from indoctrination to "I choose to believe this because it flatters my ego."

But I digress. The topic at hand was Ulfric and his subjugation. Many Stormcloak apologists are quick to cry that beloved Ulfric is not racist -- that may be true, but he has a funny way of showing it.

Actually, Albinodunmer, your notion of plurality intrigues me. Many who are gung-ho for a cause or group ignore it's bad sides (there's an applicable Shaw quote, but I can't remember it exactly enough); for example, when I was told "Ulfric isn't a murderer, he's a hero" I immediately thought "he's both."

Ulfric's cause fails to speak to me because (ignoring Talos' vast non-relgious significance) Talos is a symbol of Nordic pride -- he was a Nord (supposedly) and now he's a god. Doesn't that just say what an amazing people the Nords are, if one from among them can be a god? As for "Skyrim for the Nords" -- you had no issue until the Concordat. "Patriotism is the conviciton that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it." The same for the Thalmor. Everyone's spreading sanctimony to soothe their abused egos.

Ulfric worries me -- if he's not racist, he's pliable enough to bend to political pressure, the Stormcloaks who are bigoted (and, likely, Galmar Stone-Fist).

His treatment of minorities goes beyond apathy -- many Dunmer in the Grey Quarter work perfectly legitimate jobs. Why don't they have enough? They don't have enough business. And they don't have enough business because the Nords won't buy from them simply because they're not Nords.

He keeps Argonians outside -- why? He never says. Some Stormcloak apologists say it's for their protection. Protection from whom? The Dunmer don't care. There's only one Dunmer there who makes any vaugely racist comments (Suvaris Atheron -- read her journal and hear all of her dialogue; I'm not going to pass judgement, as I may simply be mis-interpreting her tone). If it's protection, it's from the Nords, as Brunwuulf Free-Winter clarifies.

It's starts getting interesting when you realize that (not including guards) Windhelm's total population of Nords is only slightly over one-half of the total population. The minority (Dunmer and Argonian) population is nearly one-third of the entire city's.

How dare Ulfric complain that the other Jarls don't listen to their people when he himself does not? Then again, Ulfric doesn't even believe that there's a killer on the loose in his city -- his attitude isn't surprising.

I hate Ulfric's politics. I don't mind the man much, though; he hides his damning faults well.

Bah. I'm digressesing and rambling, substituting invective for argument, and I fear I've lost my point. I'll finish up with this: Ulfric and his supporters do not treat the city's minorities appropriately. Ignoring his full cause, Ulfric, whether through prejudice or indifference*, ignores their situations, with no guarantee that he will ever look into it as Jarl (if he's defeated, the Imperial Jarl certainly will; if he wins, it depends on his chosen successor). The Dunmer have a right to complain, Grey Quarter or no. The Argonians suffer fools gladly, but this strikes me more as defeatism than docility.

I hope that this didn't reek of pathos, or worse, bathos.


*"The greatest sin towards our fellow creatures is not to hate them, but to be indifferent to them; that is the essence of inhumanity."

(( This thread is a joy to read. It's filling in HUGE gaps in my knowledge of past events and political views, thanks guys. ))

Notice the source of those statements. The Temple and extremist Ashlanders. Just proof of the indoctrination and the Temple's established norms of reinforcing Xenophobia imo. The same is done for most immoral regimes throughout history. The Tribunal based their entire Religion on a very big lie. The Temple exacerbated the feelings of the Dunmer peoples for 3000 years towards outsiders, especially Beastfolk, and reinforced that by basically being a very powerful Nation for a number of years. Might is right, right? This is an example of reinforcing Superiority. It was a compounding effect that got worse and worse.

The Ashlanders did what most tribal groups did. They looked at a rival group that was very different from themselves, the Argonians. They could not see past the differences and decided to attack them. When the Argonians could not effectively defend themselves from the Dunmer incursions then they found them to be weak and worthless. They then thought they would enslave them which is also a very common thing for many primitive cultures. They thought they were bad slaves, probably because the Argonians refused to work for them effectively, and stopped doing so. Then the Ashlanders started being looked down on by the other Dunmer as lesser peoples and the Ashlanders connected this with the other Dunmer's interactions with other peoples. This caused them to become wildly xenophobic over the years and is that would lead to the statements you posted above. It is not acceptable but it is understandable. Once you understand those things you will realize that Dunmer are not bad but they just have had a series of bad events that led them down their road. It is from there that you should start judging them.

As for Helseth's machinations. Just because he manipulated it into happening does not make the sacrifice of the Dunmer who died fighting each other in that conflict any less. That the Dunmer did not refuse altogether to fight for the Beast races freedom should be some proof of how the Dunmer society was changing for the better. So while yes, Helseth and especially House Des chose to abolish slavery for their own mostly selfish reasons, the regular Dunmer who were fighting the other Dunmer were doing something that was VERY representative of their change in culture and the fact that they were willing to fight is something worth noting. Of course the change would take time with a long lived people like the Dunmer and naturally the Beastfolk would be looked down on by the wide majority of the Dunmer people. But at that point how are the Dunmer any different than say they Nords, who won't even let Khajiit into their cities period, and in some cases hate everyone non-human like in Windhelm?

My point is that the Dunmer were at least headed in the right direction culturally. The Argonian Invasion was such a travesty for many reasons, but the biggest was the complete 360 they did for the progressing Dunmer culture. They essentially guaranteed the Dunmer would almost never view the Argonians in a friendly light again and likely guaranteed another age of conflict between Dunmer and Argonians. Was vengeance really worth that? If the Hist were wise would they not have tried to forge a lasting peace between those people. Call me optimistic but it really was a damned blunder of a missed opportunity.

This will be an ugly, but fairly apt comparison, so I apologize if it offends someone in advance. Imagine what would of happened in the United States, if right after the Civil War, African American people had risen up and started attacking the white people in force? It might have irreparably damaged the relations and chance of peace between Caucasian and African peoples for another century or more. Thankfully the African American people of those time were unbelievably tough and wise enough to know that more violence is not the solution for change. They practiced Ahimsa and protested in that way, and it has caused a slow but noticeable increase in equality even though we still are not where we need to be today(not really even close tbh). If things had been different it only would cause a temporary reprieve and then the cycle of hate begins anew.

Then being nice, as the Dunmer likely see it, got them a mega [censored] slap from the cosmos(Red Year, 2nd Arnesian War, Oblivion Crisis, Civil war, Death of their gods, Mercenary invasion, becoming refugees, and losing many of their loved ones) and lo and behold an extremely bitter and angry people who have been devastated literally, culturally and viciously. Add their naturally long lifespans and you get people who still have all that fresh in their minds 200 some years later. Then throw a damned abhorrently racist Ulfric in the mix and you just got all kinds of bad temperament.

So yeah, excuse them for not being the friendliest people.

Oops you added quite a bit more to your post I see.

I think I addressed some of it like Pride. Though I will g more into that. The Dunmer rightfully have great pride in themselves as they resisted the encroaches of the all-powerful empire not once but twice. The first time fighting them to a standstill against Reman which ended with Remans death I believe and the second time forcing a very, very favorable treaty that basically left them their own Nation in all but name. Meanwhile every single other nation and race was brought under the Empires will forcefully or willingly with the Empires laws and regulations in place. They have also been a powerful nation with three living gods for 3000 years and well within their power to easily subjugate just about whoever they wanted around them. In those kinds of societies might is truly right in their eyes. So I would say their pride and Patriotism is pretty hard to match. Getting their entire culture completely turned on its head like that must have been one of the biggest "oh crap" moments I can think of. From the top of the mountain to the deepest valley with nary a damned thing to break their fall. Just straight to rock bottom.

The only real exceptions being the Altmer because they got rocked by a godly time stomping robot that is pretty much invincible so they got conquered but you can hardly blame them for that. In theory that battle is still happening between Numidium and the Psijiic order(or other Altmer) throughout and outside of time. The other people who barely got conquered were the Argonians who the Empire had conquered but tentatively. They basically could not force the issue but Argonia became part of the Empire, though it was hardly governed or even watched over by the various Empires iirc.

Oh, and yeah Ulfric has many facets but he certainly does things only for himself and his people. He does not give two [censored] about anyone else. He even has his guards ignore any non-nords when they are attacked outside the city. Why should his Guards die for the people of his city if they are not his people right?

I sorted their payments out...

If someone knocked on your door and it was an Argonian, would you let him in?

Depends. Am I Dunmer? Am I in the TES universe? Is the Argonian with the An-Xiheel?

Yes to all if so. But if the last one it is only because I would kill them. The An-Xiheel are just bad imo.

IRL? Hell no, I would first say wth is that and why does it exist?

They were supposed to kiss the Dunmer and throw them a party? I imagine the Decree was controversial, even though all the jarls seemed to have agreed to it. And sure even the wording has to do with Nord pride- "let no one say we weren't merciful." I don't downrate their gift of land as much as you do, though. Maybe there's another example of former enemies in Tamriel not just not taking advantage of another's weakness, but actually ceding territory to them- any territory- but I don't know of one. Refuge inside a walled city is no small thing. There is also the fact that Solstheim and Windhelm are both powerfully symbolic in the conflict with the elves- the seat of Ysgramor, the site of the Battle of Moesring. The statement the Nords made is more significant than powdering the Dunmer's asses.

And yet the guards will tell you to sell your wares at Revyn Sadri's. You know, ironically people start whole threads about how they expected the Grey Quarter to be worse than it is. Just buying into Ambarys' rhetoric. As you say, a number of them are doing just fine.

I don't say it's for their protection. I think it's because he's got bigger fish to fry and is solving problems in Windhelm by trying to keep things as simple as possible. We know from Brunwulf that the city's residents don't want Argonians in the city. Ulfric is choosing his battles, and the problems of Nords are higher on his priority list. See it as sinister if you like, but the other Stormcloak jarls have non-Nords in their households, the Stormcloak areas have the most non-Nords, and nothing changes in that regard after Ulfric's victory.

If you're going to condemn Ulfric, you'd better have the black pen ready for all the jarls.

Meanwhile it's not Argonians and Dunmer who are being dragged off by the Thalmor. The pity party for them always strikes me as so overdone, considering they're not suffering any more than poor Nords do. Call that "inhumane" if you like.

Lol, that little story gives me a good laugh every time! As far as I'm concerned, the Dunmer really got off easy for all their crimes against other races. Nobody should have helped them, they didn't deserve it.
And what have the Argonians been through? Slavery and torture at the hands of a race whose sadism makes that of the Dwemer pale in comparison.
An-Xileel FTW!

Albiondunmer, I think your account of the abolition is just a little bit too perfect, peaceful and generally good-natured to ever have been committed by Dunmer. Now I'm not a TES lore-master but Dunmer look down on other races and consider them inferior. What i can't comprehend is why? Is it because they boast a thorough knowledge of magic? Big deal, if a scrawny ashlander mage were going up against a screaming Nord/Orc swinging a battleaxe, I'd put my bet on the latter. However, back on topic could you explain to me why such an unworthy race would ever even think of considering themselves superior?

Who cares? They're a bunch of lizards. Why don't they just go to Black Marsh?


But they came to Skyrim. They get a home that fits Black Marsh's quality.


There is no mistreatment.

They have made some of the best battlemages, spell swords, and nightblades that Tamriel has ever seen. As well as being an offshoot of the Altmer, they deserve to be arrogant.

Same goes for the Dunmer.

Yes, well magic is not everything. There is also, compassion, combat abilities, honesty, and common decency. Just to name a few attributes that one can be proud of, none of which the Dunmer boast.

Absolutely.

For crap sake... ancestor reverence is not necromancy!

The Dunmer get the better dwellings for several reasons:
#1. Their home was trashed... not just by Red Mountain, but by stick-wielding Argonian louts.
#2. The Chimer were there first... Nords only kicked 'em out later, and then they became Dunmer and all that. Essentially, they're the natives.
#3. The better dwellings are away from the water... tough luck to the slimy lizardfolk who like to stay wet.


Honestly though, the Argonians shouldn't even be able to survive somewhere as cold as Skyrim. They're reptiles for crap sake!
They should just go back to their stupid swamps (or better yet, the kwama mines).


Combat abilities they have in abundance.
The rest don't put food on the table and honestly don't amount to a great deal. Those who prefer to have them... do. Those who would rather go without... likewise.
Isn't like the Argonians have ANY of the above.

Never count out a mage, magic is the most powerful force on Nirn.

@ Albiondunmer: I'm talking about the Dunmer and Argonians in Windhelm and in their present circumstances. The Dunmer have been there for 200 years, they aren't Red Year survivors.

As for being chummy because they both were in the empire, how well did that work out for the Bosmer and Khajiit, or for the Argonians and Dunmer? Imperial provinces can and did war with each other, and the empire let them go at it unless imperial interests were threatened. Cyrodiil and Hammerfell also blocked Bosmer refugees from fleeing north in the conflict (see A Dance in Fire). What the Nords did was pretty unusual.

The Dunmer have had it pretty hard lately. It's unfair to say that only the Argonians have been treated unfairly in Skyrim. Racism is a problem for all cultures in all cultures.

He he he fishes catching fishes....

I totally agree. If they are treated badly, they'll make bad shoes for my Dunmer.
Now, those at Windhelm docks are drugheads and jerks so they should be glad they got a job at all.

For all those that think its just the poor Nords being dragged off for Talos worship its not, everybody that worship will be taken by the Thalmor they do not care about race they care about erasing Talos from the mythic.