Read Dunmer of Skyrim to see how dunmer feel about Nords.
Then read Scourge of the Grey Quarter to see an alternate viewpoint as to the real cause of the problem that curses the dunmer in Skyrim.

I know that the Argonians are getting unfair treatment, and it svcks.

Afterall, when you turn their skin into boots, your armor rating is less than the fur that you get off the Khajiits.

welcome to the "real" world, time for you to learn the terms about "cheap labor", or "outsourcing".

That first book is one persons view. Not all of them. He was probably just a pissed off Dunmer who read the book Nords of Skyrim and was thought it was all BS. With the way he was treated maybe all the points in the Nords of Skyrim were right because he was abused regularly. Who knows. My point is that it was one dude.

The Second is inaccurate and biased. It says the Argonians are so well off and doing well but neglects to mention that they are treated like crap. It is basically one author who probably lives in Windhelm bashing the Dunmer in that town because he cannot comprehend what they have been going through. It's only real good point is that the Dunmer are holding themselves down to some extent. But I wonder why the Dunmer seem to think everything was much better before Ulfric became Jarl. Note that they do not mention the Civil War. They mean prior to the civil war when Ulfric became Jarl. He has been treating non-Nords badly for years apparently.

Almost every book in TES is filled with bias and inaccuracies. Remember that.
Depends really. The Dunmer and Argonians make almost zero mention of the Argonians invasion at all. I don't think any of them even really show much offense to each other. The Argonians do not really mention anything to me when I play as a Dunmer either. Has anyone been an Argonian and talked to the Dunmer in the grey quarter? Do they mention the 2nd Arnesian war or any invasion of Morrowind to you?
This was a novel. My info is from Infernal city. An actual novel written about the series. The comparison to the Thalmor is a mite harsh but I still feel like they are worse than the Stormcloaks. Then again the Stormcloak, Thalmor and An-Xiheel all have something in common. They seem to be extremist political groups with their own agenda and a tendency to do things in whatever way they deem necessary. However the only two that seem to have done any purging are the Thalmor and An-Xiheel.

It was obviously his opinion - as I said, an alternate viewpoint. But if you look at the position and attitude of Windhelm dunmer you can see that there is some validity. The dunmer basically think that Ulfric has not done what he should to improve their living conditions, right? Or in other words - Ulfric owes them free home upgrades. I had to pay for all mine so I think its not so unfair to expect them to earn and pay for theirs as well.

The Svann speaks and provides much truth. Perhaps it is wise to assume the Dunmer are a spoiled race, no?

The whole racial tension situation in Windhelm is poorly implemented across the board. I don't like either of the books dealing with it.

The Forsworn situation is much better-done.

I believe that one if the Dunmer and one of the Altmer are right when it comes to the Dunmer situation in Windhelm. If an Altmer from Alinor can be accepted then the Dunmer can if they were willing to stop blaming others and do something about it. And about the whole business about Morrowind being destroyed I cannot think of a people who deserved it more.

As for the Argonians being treated badly I agree, it is most unfair that they are banned from entering the city and get paid less than others.

@Ja'rahzir, it is never wise to assume.

Or..Ulfric has made things harder for them by not providing services to them in equal amounts as his other citizens. There is either an in-game book or dialogue that states Ulfric specifically has his guards ignore everyone non-Nord. Seems more like he is depriving them of rights than he is just not upgrading their homes. It IS a rulers job to make sure their citizens are happy and healthy. If the Dunmer are unhappy he should have tried something to help them somewhere down the line but no, he neglected them completely and then of course the Civil War happened. He had time prior to the civil war to help them too when he had resources that were not needed for a civil war. He still withheld them. Ulfric is a for the Nords and only for the Nords kind of guy, cut it however you want. The Dunmer situation is both Jarl Ulfric's and the Dunmer peoples themselves fault.

Bad kitty.

***

Now, no Dunmer in Windhelm mentions the Argonians, save Suvaris Atheron (the Dunmer being bullied by Rolff Stone-Fist and Angrenor when you first enter the city), who calls them lazy, and has deprived Stands-in-Shallows of his skooma. Though, considering that the other Dunmer don't think much of her for working for a Nord family ("Have they given you one of those helmets with the horns on them yet?"), I can't blame her for venting her anger.

The Argonians mostly focus their anger on the Nords, though Scouts-Many-Marshes "wishes the Nords, Argonians, and dark elves in Windhelm got along better" -- though this doesn't directly state conflict, and can be interpreted more along the lines of "I wish the Nords liked us minorities more." In fact, the barkeep at the New Gnisis Cornerclub is quite friendly/chatty with Scouts, though thanks to Scouts' schedule, these scenes can't be seen in-game. I'll post them both if anyone wants me to.

I mentioned this before, but here's the direct quote. Post-Imperial takeover, the Argonians are not being kept out of the city to keep them from the Dunmer:

"Most of the folk in the city believe as Ulfric did, that outsiders should not be trusted. Until those people learn to accept the Argonians, they must remain outside, for their own safety. Old habits don't die easily, and we Nords can be as stubborn as stone." - Brunwuulf Free-Winter

For the records, here's his dialogue about the Dunmer:

"I met with several of the Dark Elves to discuss improvements in the Gray Quarter, but we have no real plans as of yet. First we'll need to refill our coffers and stockpile stone and wood. The war took a heavy toll on Windhelm's resources. But I swore an oath to our Dunmer friends that, for as long as I sit on the throne of Windhelm, their needs will not be ignored."

And a collection of quotes from the minorities:

"Unlike Ulfric, Brunwulf has shown a great willingness to work with the other races and make us feel more at home here." - Aval Atheron

"You must be new around here, or you'd know they don't let my kind live anywhere outside that slum." - Aval Atheron

"If it looks to you like an impoverished slum, that's because it is. Ulfric prefers that we live in squalor... He tolerates us, but that's the extent of his hospitality." - Malthyr Elenil

"Ulfric and his Stormcloaks made no secret of their disdain for the Dark Elves." - Malthyr

"But in time, I made the right friends and proved myself useful enough that they don't give me trouble anymore. The dark elves are too proud and naive to understand the way things truly are, and so they continue to dwell in that slum." - Niranye (bear in mind that she is in a position of power -- she fences for the Summerset Shadows; taking her first sentence into account, it comes across less as "the Dunmer are too proud" and more "the Dunmer don't have the right criminal connections")

"They're parasites. They're living in our city, under our protection, but what do they do for us? Nothing! I know the High King invited them here, but he didn't ask me or anyone else first. Maybe he should have." - Rolff Stone-Fist (before anyone quotes him, read the next quote)

"They've done nothing to help in the fight for Skyrim's freedom. Those Thalmor are elves, too. I bet they're working together. Maybe I should round up some men and take us a few prisoners to interrogate." - Rolff (in my opinion, he just lost a good chunk of his credibility)

"Did you know it was his decree that forbade the Argonians from living inside the city walls?" - Scouts (so, in other words, Argonians could live in the city when Ulfric's father was ruling)

"And it isn't just the dark elves they hate -- they make a target of the Argonians as well." - Suvaris (I don't hate Suvaris, I really don't -- I wonder if this is "I feel for them" or "Nord bigotry disrupts their work, which disrupts my work"?)

More Rolff! These are his angry drunken rants:

"Go back to Morrowind, Dark Elf maggots! You're not welcome here!"

"Get out of our city, gray-skins! This is Nord land!"

"We don't want your kind here, dark elves!"

"This place reeks of gray-skin filth!"

"You like living in this filthy slum, dark elves? Maybe you should go back to Morrowind, where you belong!"

Bear in mind that Rolff is Galmar's brother, and Galmar is Ulfric's second-in-command.

***

Now that that quote deluge is done, it's less that the Dark Elves want free stuff, and more that they don't want to be treated like crap. The slum might be bearable if it didn't come with racism.

Why do they go to Ulfric for help? Well, for one thing, I don't see any independent construction companies, do you?

***


People, please stop using Niranye as an example! How many of you have dealt with her? I mean, *really* dealt with her? She's smug and condescending because she knows you can't touch her -- Linwe would kill who ever makes trouble for her. She's not "accepted," she's feared.

There are other Altmer in the city -- a looney potion-seller who runs a monopoly, and the people who run the stables -- outside the walls, away from any Nords.

Nice job PrinceShroob, great finds in those quotes and nice anolysis thereafter. So it is as I expected. The Argonians and Dunmer seemingly have no conflict with each other. I wonder why that is? Seems like it would be kind of unreasonable to expect them to act that way. I also wonder if Ulfric's Nords have made them empathize with each other because of the shared mistreatment and racism displayed by many of the Nords in Windhelm?

Kind of funny in some ways. Everyone hates on the Dunmer but if we go through every province we will see many signs that not all of them are good in any way. Playing as an elf in Skyrim is a good way to start disliking the Nords. Same if you play anyone in Morrowind. Lol the Dunmer kind of just dislike everyone, including other Dunmer though. I kind of hope we go to Black Marsh or Elsweyr next now.

If I'm right, I think that a lot of the Grey Quarter Dunmer are, thanks to their long lifespans, "first generation" -- you know, the ones who fled Morrowind during the Red Year? The oldest Argonian is Stands-in-Shallows, and he's maybe... 50? 60? Old enough to show his age, anyway, since his complexion in the Creation Kit is defined as "ArgonianOld". The rest are maybe in their twenties or thirties, give or take: Scouts says he "came [to Windhelm] as a hatchling"; so let's see... Ulfric drove the Forsworn from the Reach about 25 years before the game starts. He says something about having to give his father's eulogy from a prison cell*, so that would be during the Great War. I think he's actively serving in the Legion (or was the group that took Markarth independent? I can't remember) at that time, so Windhelm proabably has a regent... so, since Scouts never talks about living in the city, that means he's no older than thirty.

The invasion of Morrowind happened some hundred-thirty years before Skyrim; it's possible that the Argonians haven't been socialized to hate the Dunmer (why would they? The Dunmer haven't been slave-raiding for two hundred years, and Black Marsh -- presumably -- has held the south of Morrowind for one hundred-sixty years). The Dunmer likely see no reason to hate Argonians who had nothing to do with the Red Year at all... and besides, why waste time hating Argonians when the Nords are so much more present?

Wheres the quotes from the dunmer farmer that has nords working under him? hes got soem good ones. Also i believe 2 of the dunmer u qouted from most are the 2 that have no jobs living in the attic of the inn?

Case in point, take all those qoutes AND keep in mind that A. there is a war going on in which "I met with several of the Dark Elves to discuss improvements in the Gray Quarter, but we have no real plans as of yet. First we'll need to refill our coffers and stockpile stone and wood. The war took a heavy toll on Windhelm's resources." which means they are low on resourses. I dont see any qoutes or have i seen any lines form in the game that Ulfric WONT improve the area, its that he dosent have time to atm. And thens theres B. They are living for free and not paying taxes.Im sorry but u pay taxes for ur leaders to have money to make improvements or fix things that are broken for you. When u take A. being in a war with low resourses with B. not contributing to the city finances.....welllllll i mean cmon. Also a major part in why the Dunmer are on the back burner atm....

"Most of the folk in the city believe as Ulfric did, that outsiders should not be trusted. Until those people learn to accept the Argonians, they must remain outside, for their own safety. Old habits don't die easily, and we Nords can be as stubborn as stone." - Brunwuulf Free-Winter
"They're parasites. They're living in our city, under our protection, but what do they do for us? Nothing! I know the High King invited them here, but he didn't ask me or anyone else first. Maybe he should have." - Rolff Stone-Fist (before anyone quotes him, read the next quote)
"They've done nothing to help in the fight for Skyrim's freedom"

Again reason they are not being "respected" atm is for the simple fact that is a very tense time for the city that is housing the country's biggest "fugitive" and is expecting to be attacked at any moment. When u have a time like that and u have people not contributing to finances OR moral support..hell at least one of those woulda got them in a better position.

Let me clarify this in our terms. Ur renting an apartment, ur buddy whos making more money and got everyone the place had a friend who lost his/her home and job so with him mkaing more than enuf money tells everyone that hey this person who everyone tolerates but dosent really get alogn with is gonna come live in our apartment. Hell its got room and they giving that person the smallest room at the end of the hall because hell its free but they have a place to stay. Well ur buddy who was makign the big bucks and invited the person to stay and even got them on the lease rent free...well he gets xfered/married/etc and bids everyone a fond farewell and heads out. This happened near end of the month and everyone alrdy had set back the exact amoutn of money and pretty much spent all the rest on booze/food/etc. Now everyones gotta come up with extra money to makeup for the friend that just bailed and if they dont everyoen might get kicked out . Well everyones at thier jobs scrambling for extra hours, OT, and looking for odd jobs to come up with the cash so the landlord dont come with the police and evict everyone...the friend that staying rent free accidently tripped and busted a window in his room. Now hes coming up to u to fix his window because its so cold in his room and because hes an obnoxious lil punk no one will let him stay in thier rooms or on the couch or anywhere else. Thats a problem that needs to be fixed BUT this is also the person who has literally sat on his ass the whole times hes been here just doign his own thing, not really sociallizing because we all like to play video games and drink beer while he likes to play board games and drink wine coolers and has gotten upset that no one at the house likes to do the things he likes or even wanna try them out, so hes basically shut himself off in his room and dont really sociallize when he does and has yet to even go look for a job. When pressed to help out with the rent or to get a job, its not his problem. he never asked to be put into a situation where he ould have to help everyone stay in the house.

Actually, Revyn Sadri who owns the used goods store seems to pay taxes. If you decide to speak with Viola in the quest he gives you, she mentions she will be asking the Jarl to have Sadri's taxes doubled or tripled in punishment.

Otherwise, that's a pretty ineffectual punishment, 0*3=0

You should visit the shatter-shield offices when that dunmer lady is working there. She doesn't seem to like the argonians much at all.


Personally I think beth forgot to give us some crucial info in this city or screwed up with it. The Decree of monument states the dunmer are to be self-governed, obliged to no one, and pay no taxes.

Viola seems to contradict it.

No one else mentions it. Did the Dunmer decide to swear fealty to Ulfric and become citizens of Windhelm? Why do they complain about treatment when they refuse their lord's request then? Is the decree still on? They aren't Ulfric's responsibility, they're supposed to be governing themselves.

I don't know much about Argonians, but it may be as simple as they got their revenge and are satisfied. In The Infernal City there's an interesting passage where Mere-Glim is reflecting on the importance of the Hist trees. He says (thinks), "it was the Hist that drove the empire into the sea, it was the Hist that got revenge on the slaveholders..." The Hist may simply have been satisfied with the slaughter and has gone back to keepin on keepin on.

The history of the 4th era says that Dunmer were prospering in Winterhold and part of the merchant class there. There may be something to the idea that Windhelm is entrenched in old ways and so it brings out the separationism and pride of both Nords and Dunmer.

Those poor Dunmer who survived the Red Year only to be crushed in the Great Collapse... I thought it was moving that Hadvar says to a Dunmer character, "the gods have truly forsaken your people." One reason why I like the idea of a Dunmer dovahkiin.

I don't like lizard people..or turtle people....watch out for turtles..

The problem with all of that is that the Civil War came AFTER the mistreatment of all the non-nords. The Mistreatment started with Ulfric becoming Jarl, while he still had is resources at peak capacity and still he did nothing. Why else would Ulfric order his guards to only help Nords? Not like when they are already on patrol they cannot assist everyone in need. There are accounts of bandits attacking non-nords and the guards just letting it go. Or if people go to the guards to oust a group of bandits that ONLY attacks non-Nords the guards will do nothing. However if a group of bandits attack Nords then they will do something about it.

The Stormcloaks are simply racist and Ulfric is the worst of the lot. Sure, they certainly have valid reasons for their rebellion in the banning of Talos worship and kidnapping of his worshipers by the Thalmor, but that does not even come close to justifying their racism towards the other races. Ignorance, prejudice and racism abound in Windhelm. Some Nords seriously think the Dunmer have something to do with the Altmer or worse yet the Thalmor? Ignorance right there. That is part of the problem. Ulfric does nothing to educate his own people or dissuade them from their racist tendencies. He could issue a simple statement that the Dunmer of Windhelm have nothing to do with our enemies the Thalmor. How can the Dunmer help the Nords in their conflict when they have a hard enough time feeding their families? They have important concerns of their own. It is not like the Dunmer are doing all well and peachy and then are refusing to help the Stormcloaks. Besides last I checked the Stormcloaks were ALL Nord. Do they even take recruits from other races except for the Dovahkiin?
Which is what I was expecting, Dunmer hating on Argonians, and it is only like one person though. Hardly representative of the whole.

I agree Beth messed some things up. A lot of things feel rushed in this game if you look any deeper than the surface. The surface is pretty though right? The decree would be acceptable if no one was hindering them as well. How can you be self-governing when you are subject to the laws of the city you are living in. That decree is all documentation and BS. Obviously the Nords expect something of the Dunmer do they not? Which contradicts the Decrees part about being obliged to no one. The Decree is just full of it and is not even important except as a scapegoat for Ulfric to ignore the Dunmer. But even then why does Ulfric treat all non-Nords/non-humans badly then? The guy is a piece of crap in my book. He needlessly slaughtered countless people in the reach for no good reason. It was unnecessary. He could have done what needed doing in a much less violent and extreme way. And as you said, it appears that some Dunmer DO have to pay taxes.

What requests has Ulfric made of the Dunmer? I think half the resentment the Dunmer have for the Nords of Windhelm is that they are ignored by the government and treated like unwelcome guests by the common people. They are living in Ulfric's city. They are still his responsibility. They affect his other citizens. They are still his responsibility. They affect the economics of his city. They are still his responsibility. Just because they are not supposed to be governed by Ulfric does not mean he ignores them completely. That is just stupid governing. They are an entity in his city. They are something he should deal with just like any group. Instead he ignores them and has been since before the Civil War started.

You don't have to be the dovahkiin to join.(Though you have to if you wanna continue past whiterun)
You can run into dunmer heading to windhelm to join the stormcloaks.
Galmar comments on why you want to join the stormcloaks and the moment you tell him it isn't just the nords home, he agrees and allows you to.
A lot of dunmer seem to be doing fine, one owns a farm that employs nords for talos sake. There's two malcontents that sit in the pub and drink all day reminiscing about the good old days, and 1 that works at the dock cursing at the argonians.
Nurelion seems to have no trouble with the nords. Arivanya has no trouble with the nords, Ulundil has no trouble with the nords. Faryl Atheron works a farm and says he's sick of his brother harping about "injustices".

You mean like how Rolff is hardly representative of the whole?



How have the dunmer been hindered by Ulfric's policies? Please cite sources. I'd love to know.

Funny how people still think Bear of Markarth isn't a piece of garbage for info made to appease the thalmor overlords. Especially considering Braig tells you it was the jarl that was killing folks for no reason.(He's a bit upset by his father's death at the hands of forsworn if you talk to him or his housecarl)

To actually help out in the war effort.

They are his responsibility, insofar as they're a foreign entity that so far hasn't been attacking his people. They take up half the city, but don't contribute to its welfare. So long as they don't affect his charges(actual citizens of windhelm), he has no obligation to act for or against them. The US has no obligation to build housing for Canadians or police Canada.

The whole racism in Skyrim needs a overhaul. The NPCs completely ignore the players race (other than a few simple rare comment). It dosen't make sense when the player is a Argonian or Khajiit and you're free to talk and walk anywhere (even though the NPCs say that they're not allowed in or they hate them). Also it doesn't make sence when the player is a Argonian and you convince the dock master to increase the dock worker's salary etc. etc..

Who cares about those filthy lizards.

There has been a great passing of time from Oblvion to Skyrim, I also assume a lot of the Dunmer are first generation, they live well beyond human years and also their lives are extended by magic if they are proficient in its use. Anyways the Dunmer have began to change in these past two hundred years their old ways are dying they do not keep slaves and they are venturing away from ancestor worship.

At one of the post above it says the Nords and Ulfric turn a blind eye to all Nords perpetuating crimes but let that be another race it would not be looked at so kindly. The Dunmer have also performed many great acts the battle with the Dwemer they drove back an actual Daedric Prince Dagon, and so on. Also Morrowind is famous for their mage lords.

You do realize Ulfric doesn't even have forces to spare to stop a murderer in his own city right? One that has been killing nords. He doesn't waste men on things that don't help the war effort. It might be a legitimate claim if he was not currently in a war and was lazing about with his troops standing off to the side.

So, are you complaining that Argonians should be given housing in the City or that the Dunmer should be kicked out? At least Argonians have the option of moving to Rifton. There are several Argonian there with good positions inside the City walls. Poor Khajiit have to live in tents everywhere they go.