Someone who gets it!!!

Somebody get this man an ale, stat!

Yeah it sure hurts realism when all races can be the same in the end.

It totally ruins my real life immersion that there are white athletes, and black presidents. [censored] this equality thing that allows all races to be just like everyone else in the end.

Diversity? Role Play? Some people like khajiits? Some people like Argonians?

People forget that this is an RPG, there are supposed to be alternative ways around obstacles. Khajiit can't enter cities? No problem. 1. Wear a disguise 2. Bribe the guards 3. Do some quests and gain trust. 4. Sneak in. 5. Kill everyone.

How can it be "dumbing down" when those elements have always been a factor of the series???

As for the rest, I can only say

I'm glad you completely missed the point.

In the world of TES, are Orcs known for their Mage abilities? No, no they aren't. Then, with that said, why is the path of an Orc Mage pretty much the same, with slightly less ease, than that of a High Elf?

I agree with this. Race choice for me came down to, 'which one do I like the look of best?'. It epitmises the shallowness of the game for me. There was no consideration of which race fitted my play style best or which race suits the character I wish to play as.The fact that everything is in the head of the player may be the ultimate freedom for some, personally it makes the game boring. There is no meaningful choice, everyone can do eveything.

Makes it more like an MMO.

Except that there have been Orcs in every game's version of the Mage's Guild in every Elder Scrolls game I've ever played.

There is an Orc who is in the Balmora Mage's Guild, typically the first Mage's Guild you enter in Morrowind. There are Orcs in Oblivion's Mage's Guild. As well as Redguards, who are even more not known for magical talents than Orcs. And an Orc runs the Arcanaeum in the College of Winterhold.

The path is the same because the different characters of different races put the same time, effort, and practice into perfecting their crafts.

And that's what makes Elder Scrolls games incredible, the fact that I'm not put into arbitrary race / class boxes. Oh, this race can be this, or that, but not that. This class can wear this and use that, but not these.

Elder Scrolls means I can design my character however I want, including making Redguard or Orc mages if I choose, which means more roleplaying possibilities.

If you want your boxes to tell you what you can and cannot play, you're more than welcome to go fire up WoW. But please, keep your limits and lack of choice out of my Elder Scrolls.

I'd like some limitations as well. But mostly revolving around choices and guilds, missions you do etc. Or skill/attribute/background checks.

Also, there were no Orc mages in Oblivion. the closest thing to an Orc mage in Oblivion was one of the healers in the Temple in Cheydinhal. Lore wise, there are Orcs in high places in the Mages guild. The Black Arts on Trial had one. they are just extremely rare, since that isn't your average Orcs prerogative.

My reasons for it is that I'd rather look at a sixy Elf Chick than a Orc one.
Other than that, initial skill level for your preferred play-style.
Playing a Magical Orc is completely possible, just not feasible.

Now that khajiit can wear helms and shoes, a lot of the fun has gone out of the game. Sure, it keeps people from whining about getting less when they choose a race, but I like my positive effects balanced with some bad.

Again you're still missing the point.

I'm not saying something as absurd as "X race can't be X job class" like in WoW.

You mention you saw Orcs in Mage Guilds, which is true, but considering their pre-disposition to armed combat and smithing, do you think it was as easy for them to join, and climb, the ranks of the Mage's Guild as it was for a High Elf? No, it most certainly was not. Again, read this line very carefully:

I am not saying "X race can't be X job class."

What I am saying is have the player choose their race and the game adjust accordingly. Let's take Bretons and High Elves for example. Both become mages, so add small touches to gameplay like perhaps a smaller cost for training due to the ease they have in learning magick, a small bonus to magicka or magicka regeneration even if you don't directly upgrade magicka on level up. Something that wholly reflects the choice of character you made, even if you choose to go in the completely opposite direction your race is pre-dispositioned to.

Therefore, make your Orc Mage, but while you do so, since Orcs are not known for their magick, their magick should be perhaps weaker in damage, or cost a bit more to cast, or require more usage to level than a High Elf who is inherently magickal.

I'm pretty sure I've seen an Orc somewhere in the Mage's Guild, but I'll take your word that I'm misremembering. Either way, I do know there are multiple Redguards throughout the Mage's Guilds (at least 2 - one in Cheydinhaal, and one in the Arcane University), there's also a heavy armored Wood Elf tank in Skingrad, so the notion that "oh, isn't proficient in " is a bogus argument, as there are examples within the game's own world of people that break those racial archetypes and stereotypes.

Outside of that, you and I actually agree one something.

I do believe that all characters should have access to all guilds and such, but like Morrowind, if you want to join (and later, advance within) specific guilds, then you should actually have to be proficient in the necessary skills, and if particular guilds have issue with each other, then joining competing guilds shouldn't happen.

It hasn't been a huge problem for me, because I roleplay, and my magic and combat oriented character who follows the law and tries to do right by others won't join the Thieves Guild, but that was an element of Morrowind that I did like.

Ok then would you prefer it if I said those are the elements holding the series back from its true potential? Those are the Elements that are keeping the series dumbed?

You know that's already in the game, right? What you're saying?

High Elves already have a magic regen power, so they can have better magicka regen than all other races.

Bretons have higher magical resistance, and a magical absorption power.

So these races already have qualities that reflect their magical nature.

And since an Orc doesn't have the magical stat boosts of a Breton or a High Elf, they actually -do- level slower since your overall leveling is based upon how high your skills are. I.E.: You level a skill, and it counts less towards your level if it's a lower skill than if you leveled a higher skill.

So, an Orc will take longer to level if they are trying to level magical abilities, than if they focused on their combat skills that they already have a bonus to.

No, because those aspects aren't holding the series back from it's true potential. There's nothing dumb, and has never been anything "dumb", about Elder Scrolls.

No Orc mages in Oblivion. Some in Morrowind. A ... Librarian in Skyrim. None in Oblivion though. You have the Temple healer in Cheydinhal, and arguably an arcane smith in Bliss. But not an actual Mage.

Want more limitations without actually being limited? Bring back attributes. Those intelegence and willpower limitation would make an Orc for example feel less Arcane, without actually preventing you from being a 'mage'. As is, the only limitation is a small skill gap, usually a 5-10 point difference. The attribute derivatives we're left with, dont differentiate enough. You'd still be able to be anything you wanted, youd just have to work at it longer like in previous games.

True sandbox is not really good representation of freedom in roleplaying.

Good free-roleplying should let you do a lot of different things, but clearly let you know how your actions have affected the world and what the consequences are. You are free do to anything within the laws of game's universe.

True sandbox is... your actions are meaningless because nothing you do ever matters because you have no boundaries. You are beyond any rules because you set them. True sandbox can never really be a game. It's more of game engine.

To put it in context of old school pen & paper role playing, sandbox is basically pen and paper. You can choose to write whatever rules you want, or draw a happy face, or do nothing. For it to be a game, there must be a set of rules (restrictions and boundaries) that you are willing to follow.

There were orc mages in Morrowind as well. At least one, in the Balmora Mage's guild. She's part of the main questline too

This is where we disagree on Attributes, because if you're an Orc Mage, you're just gonna pump up your Intelligence and Willpower anyways, so in the end, it's still not going to make a difference. The only thing it really did was - when I played my Redguard tank mage in Oblivion - make it take a couple extra levels to catch up via Intelligence, but by the end, I had just as high of an Intelligence as the most arcane of High Elves.

This is why I disagree so heavily with the notion that Attributes were somehow so important, because all you did was pump out the Attributes appropriate to your class and reach God-like levels in them anyways.

However by end game the differences are negligible. And end game is where you balance from generally. By the end of the game I can have an Orc Mage who is equal to, or almost equal to, a High Elf Mage through the use of the skill trees, enchantments, etc.

I'll point you towards the discussion of Light/Medium/Heavy Armor, why Medium Armor would be useless and why, in the end, choosing Heavy over Light doesn't make much of a difference.

Light Armor is supposed to weigh less but provide less protection. With various perks and enchantments, Light Armor can be nearly equal to Heavy Armor in terms of defense. Heavy Armor is supposed to weigh a lot and slow you down. With perks however you can completely negate that negative of choosing Heavy Armor. By choosing those perks you can now have weightless Heavy Armor that allows you to run as fast, or almost as fast, as someone in Light Armor.

The same can be said for the racial choices. If I can, in the end, become as good or almost as good of a Mage as a High Elf can when I choose an Orc... what's the point of picking one or the other? It becomes purely cosmetic.

Which is what I said.

Of course I have a mind to disagree, I think it is incredibly stupid when a racist nord who normally spits on Dark Elves treats my Dark Elf as he would anyone else, I find it incredibly stupid when I am able to convince racist Dunmer to leave an Argonian alone when I am a Khajiit and I find it incredibly stupid when I can become the right hand man of somebody who hates everyone (especially elves) but Nords as an Altmer, but you have the right to your opinion no matter how stupid it may be so I will leave it at that.

But end game power represents the time, effort, and practice you put into perfecting your craft, so yes, an Orc should be just as powerful a mage as a High Elf if the Orc put forth the same time, effort, and practice into perfecting his arcane talents.

That is exactly how it should work.