Are you one of those "awesome people"?

That's crazy talk.

The game should railroad your character and gimp all the stuff people can exploit them so people can then moan there's not enough choice and content has been cut or restricted.

Bethesda should stop making games with a 'do what you want to do, be who you want to be philosophy' and force everything to be seriously challenging so people don't complain. And at the same time make it easier for people who complain they want their god character back or it's become a slog that's no fun any more.

They should realise gamers get confused when confronted with game design that lets them decide how easy or difficult the game will be and make it fit the ideal of whoever complains the loudest.

Sensationalism and hyperbole. How cute.

I agree, yet I don't agree with the extreme view of balance meaning the whole game one-shotting you while completely nerfing the player, I love to be able to beat an impossible boss, and enjoy very much the satisfaction of beating and surviving the hardest of challenges, but I like using skill, wit, and experience, but not nerfed abilities to the point where it becomes a second job...Most hardcoe players are extreme by default, and they have to be, as their definition dictates, but if you fall under this category then more power to ya, (I've been there myself ) It's unrealistic however, to expect others to follow your lead and you should already be prepared to rely on harder games and niche' titles to fill that need, just don't demand and expect others who don't bask in the realm of hardship to follow your lead.


A perfect example is OOO, that had the best balance I've ever had the pleasure of playing, the worst would be an old RM2k game I played where you had to constantly grind in order to survive a simple "Green blob" attack..The game was indeed challenging, but only to the point of frustration where a decent set of armor cost you ten grand, yet only gave you a 2 point increase and the only way to enough money for the over-priced health potions were to grind through a dungeon to gather worthless loot, because the purchase price was at least a 80:20 ratio! (I would rather prefer the same, yet with earned skill you can hit a cap of like 40:60)

If you base the challenge on punishing the player by cutting off all advantages of advancing their character through experience and built up skill, you simply nerf it to the point of yet another boring grind-fest which in of itself is work, not play....


Great games include, Gothic series,(Including Risen) Ark Fatalis, The Witcher series, (Yet they nerfed some parts which made it a bit unbalanced) and even the Divine series....

Crappy games include Vanilla Oblivion, (As it ceased being a game, but more of an interactive screen saver, modded it was outstanding!) Gothic 4, and DA2, but to be fair, I'm going mostly by reviews as I detest EA, and will never buy another Bioware game as they're just EA's little ****** So it's not a question of nerfing abilities and skills but being able to include constant challenge through the game's enemies/AI and game mechanics.....


Which there's already plenty of game overhaul mods like http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1334031-wiprelz-pise-plutos-improved-skyrim-experience-thread-3/ that render this thread moot!...BTW, I loved that first link, I even subbed that guy's channel!

My issue, is that it is too easy to make the game "easy". For those that want an easy and stress free time of the game, the game is already fairly simple, and there are three difficulty settings to fall back to that offer up what they need. However, at the other end of the spectrum there is not an equivalent. Sure master pumps things up, but it is simply a multiplier that does not change the real difficulty of the game, because what is already there is not hard.

The problem goes back to the core of the mechanics in the game. If that were fixed, everything would fit together in a more coherent way. I am firmly of the belief that better balance, makes a game better, and I am not talking about cutting things or knee-jerk fixes and nerfs, I mean actual thought out balance.

Properly balanced gameplay mechanics would give people more of a reason to make more characters. The more competetive builds there are, the more you'll enjoy trying out completely different and unique builds.

For example, if crafting wasn't so blatantly overpowered, you would have a real choice between the different perks. Do I make a mage that focuses on getting better gear at the cost of some other useful perks, or do I skip crafting? Right now, if you want the most powerful character, you always know to pick crafting. If you're choosing something else, you know your character will be less powerful because of it.

It really bothers me, that many people seem to be so apathetic or hostile to the idea of good game balance, because they think it would destroy their freedom, where if it is done right, it would make it even better by providing even more choices.

Yes, you should. It is a role playing game; and not the first RPG to hit the market. Decide on your character's concept, create their role and stick to it. Your average Nord warrior is not going to have 100 in Enchanting, Alchemy and Smithing; with all the necessary supportive perks to make godlike armor and weapons. When you don't stick to your Concept/Role YOU break the game. If your concept/role is Dovakiin Ubermensch, then stop complaining that everything is too easy. You broke it.

If you create such a character, it isn't Bethesda's fault.

This seems to be the counter argumant to those you see on MMO boards where people complain the can't experience all the content on one character. It's pretty laughable.

Listen carefully here:

Because it is out of concept for your character.

If you get every skill to 100 "because you can" means you have either a Godlike concept and should not be surprised that everything comes easily for you, or, you have no concept for your character and haven't a clue how to play RPGs. Neither of which is Bethesda's fault.

I agree...
People wanting the game companies to limit them IMHO is the reason games today are being dumbed down or streamlined is the new politically correct phrase..... Instead of people thinking for themselves and taking responsibility for their own limits even in something as trivial as video games.

Giving it some second thought, even though Bethesda did improve the game's mechanics well above their previous efforts, it would not hurt in the least to take a different approach as far as overhauling the difficulty settings..A great example would be like what was done with New Vegas, whereas you had a choice whether or not you wanted to play in the hardcoe mode and yet another (Which I'm currently playing as well) Gothic 3's CPatch that allows for a much more difficult and improved AI as another choice.


I suppose it doesn't hurt us as much as they're pretty generous with the tools in crafting custom content, yet it would more than solidify them as a much more serious contender in the RPG gaming market...What, with CDPR, Piranha Bytes, and the second "RPG Renaissance" from Europe no less..


Reactionaries will react... Best to let them burn out....Yet the key word you mention is "Done right" and a lot of great mods/games do, yet when reactionaries mod, we get imbalance and dirty mods..

An very balanced game would be much more boring.
Lots of people on this forum will say that Morrowind is the best elder scroll game.
It was much worse balanced than Oblivion and Skyrim.
Alchemy was almost as powerful as alchemy in Skyrim with the fortify restoration bug.
You could pay an enchanter to make an area effect weakness to magic 100 +absorb health 100 ring with an high rate of fire, you could levitate while using it, however it was more fun jumping 200 meters and cast while going down.

Still miss it, yes it become boring after some time so you uses an damage strength 100 on target ring on bandits, this left them unable to carry their armor and they was stuck beside the road cursing you.

Oblivion and Skyrim is equal in balance however in Skyrim melee and archers are most powerful while mages was powerful in Oblivion.

Lots of well balanced games around, why not play them. If I want balance I play WOW not Skyrim.

If, for instance, you spam iron daggers to level up smithing in 30 minutes and then complain that smithing is overpowered, you can't blame the game for that. When you use common sense and try not to exploit game mechanics, you won't be overpowered.


The key is in what you said: "high-level characters with end-game gear". Well, if you're a high level character with end game gear, maybe this is a sign that your character reached his or her highest level. Time to create a new character and start anew. The only way the game could still be challenging for you is via scaled leveling, and we all know how that works.

Funnily enough, these were the same complaints heard when Morrowind was released. Beth tried to solve the problem with scaled leveling, but it went wrong and people then complained that Morrowind was better in this respect, so they returned to a system closer to what Morrowind had and people complain again. If I were a dev, I'd be banging my head on the door in frustration.

All of this can be remedied if Bethesda would try the same thing done in New Vegas, offer a choice in the difficulty settings, whereas realistic gameplay such as needing to eat, sleep deprivation, etc...You can make the game as easy and as hard-core as you like, I'm surprised that they haven't done this already.

But then again, reactionaries will react....

Pretty simple to solve this problem, remove smithing, enchanting and alchemy.
Mages was the most powerful characters in the previous games, in Skyrim they are the weakest because spell making is removed, without crafting they will still be on top.

This will also make the game easier to produce I say it's a win / win situation here.

Now we still has the issue that players can get access to powerful gear early as the location is known, solvable by restrict access to other places than quest locations, again this makes the game easier to produce as you don't have to make the wide open world.

Be very careful that you ask for as you might end up getting it, play a destruction mage to feel how it like and come back if you like it.

There really just needs to be a slew of gameplay options so that players can tailor the game to their preferred playstyle, eg an optional hardcoe Mode, optional level cap, perhaps some way of toning down skill bonuses etc. I can't believe these things would be that hard to implement considering the amount of effort that goes into the rest of the game and it could potentially improve the game for a lot of players while taking nothing away from others.

If some players want to be godlike let them be godlike but its not uncommon for players to want to make the best character they can yet still feel challenged throughout the game so there should also be options for that. I think the difficulty slider in Skyrim is better than Oblivion's but it still doesn't get the job done.

Shame on all those saying it is the OPs fault for not roleplaying properly or deliberately gimping himself. The whole point of TES is that players should have the freedom to play the they want to play.

Wow, another one of these? Really?

Hasn't this discussion been done to death already?

That would require making a whole new game. They'd rather spend the time it would take to make and balance multiple difficulty settings on adding more size and content to the world instead.

And yet with all this so called freedom, Beth still feels the need to hold our hands and gut out aspects from past games that were good, but ''not appealing to the casual gamer''? They're still limiting us, but rather in what we can do, rather than what we choose to do.

Hogwash. You ARE free to play how you want; that is the problem. Too many people want to "have it all" in one character then complain that their walking, talking, harbinger of Ragnarok has no challenge. Well, no crap. You built a character with no weakness, and every possible strength and now you complain that it's too easy? Pfft!

That's part of my point: The game doesn't really support that style of play at higher levels which is a shame because it is quite a popular style of play. I guess it is not yours so it is probably annoying that this topic keeps coming up. More than that though, there are so many ways to play TES games it just makes a lot of sense to me to have as many gameplay options as possible so players can pick the ones which suit them.

So, basically you want the game to gimp your character for you instead of you doing it yourself. No, thanks. I'd rather be free to make my own choices. And it makes the game more real for me too. I am able to paint pictures and play soccer if I so choose, but I'm never going to be as good a painter or a soccer player as someone who chose painting or playing soccer as his/her profession. My warrior can use magic, but he will never be as good a Mage as a pure Mage can be. So there you have it: choices.


Therefore you want the game to force you to ignore it so that you can be forced to lose content? Amazing.


And if they have the freedom to play the way they want to play, they have the freedom to not create an overpowered character. If the game does not allow you to do it, then you're not free anymore.

Because it's one of the few features that treats the player as an advlt to allow them to either play with limitations or be godlike. Apparently for some people here, that is one freedom too many.

Try reading the rest of my post before making a quote out of context. With more gameplay options available there is no need to put restrictions on those who like the game as it is already.

I know I don't cheese Enchanting and Smithing because I don't have the time nor inclination to spam Daggers, or fiddle with souls.

Time spent at a forge, at shops, or at the enchanting altar is time I could better spend out in the wilderness.

Haha that second one was awesome.
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What I think people don't seem to understand is something very simple...

Overpowered - Only people who want to be gods use it
Underpowered - Everyone uses it

Why not let everyone use everything in the game? Our reward for leveling up is a perk, perks that people just say "don't use it". Why are we going to level up again? It's not like we can put points into attributes anymore. We get a big whopping plus 10 to magicka, stamina or health.

Unless you can provide a video of someone showing all their stats, level, perks and everything else who is taking a fully healed Alduin down on ONE hit, I’m calling TOTAL BS on this. (Can we say gratuitous assertion anyone?)

I also find it comical (really absurd actually) that the same people who rail against Bethesda for their “hand-holding” are the same ones who when left to their own devices likewise rail against Bethesda because they weren’t forced into certain arbitrary limits that they don’t have the willpower to impose on themselves. Not to mention the fact that implementing these HIGHLY subjective limits would likewise affect players who don’t have any problems with “balancing” as it is. They simply cannot win. Unbelievable…