the difference in skyrim is you don't have to exploit or use tricks, you just have to NORMALLY level enchanting or conjuration or stealth.

no special tricks involved, godmode on master.

If you max out stealth to 100, but don't put any perk points there, you'll have a challenge.
It's the perk points that make the difference.

Stop spending them if you don't want to be uber at something.

Simple really.

Wow, that angle? Really? Really?

"This isn't that game, stop thinking like that game."

I'm not thinking like that game. I'm demonstrating what an overall balanced game is, something Skyrim isn't.

Overall balance. Say it with me.

Follow along:

I want the game to be challenging whether I play as...

Warrior
Thief
Mage
Priest
Crafter
Bard
Blacksmith
Battlemage
Berserker
Orc
Redguard
Assassin
Lazy Git Who Chops Wood All Day

I want to play the way I want to play and still be challenged.

Okay, I take your point. But suffice it to say that if this is the case, Bethesda is in the same spot as Will Wright - they're both making games that are fantastic toys to play with, but not so hot as GAMES, because they are fulfilling the requirements of a good toy, but not of a good game.


Exactly the point. It's one thing if novice allows you to easily become overpowered. If Master does so, there's a problem.


I'm one of those E-VIL capitalism-loving free market types myself, and I agree with you that Bethesda is free to make the game as they please. My point is not that Bethesda has some obligation here. They can make their game as they please, and so long as they uphold their end of the contract, they're legally in the clear.

But I'm not talking legalities here. I'm talking about what is required for a good game, and if I have to manufacture challenges because they aren't actually built into the game, then there's a problem with the game.

Exactly. There should be no way in the game to make Master easy. None.

Lol my little box... As I said before, I chose not to look at "100% chameleon" and things like that in other ES games. However there are things I can't just keep looking away in skyrim. Skills making the perks we chose useless. Perks that make combat boring and not challenging enough, and since you CAN'T GO BACK in your choices unless you realise the mistake you did in time and load a previous game, the "balance" you talk about isn't possible. Well, you can drop your weapon and start using an iron sword or even restart the game. Do you think I will do that? No. If I have to do that to enjoy the game sorry I can't.

Yes "once you figured them out."

Please note how important that it.

Please, show me a one on one fight between Drizzt Do'Urden, or a level 15 Sorcerer, who can easily beat down Lloth or a Dracolich.

Did I say "give all mobs Detect Life?"

Apparently, if you max everything out in this game...you're pretty unbeatable.
We all know that.

So...if you don't want to be unbeatable, I would suggest not maxing things out.

I've been playing CRPGs since they began.
I used to play a lot of tabletop D&D.
I'm 50 years old.

If I can change and adapt, why can't you?

you have to remember tho this game has been made so all the people who dont like a challenge can enjoy it (console generation!!)

every aspect of this game has been made to be so called "accessible"


so if you have this game on PC why are u complaining u can just get a mod that fixes the balance - if u cant find 1 make 1!!
there are already mods that fix smithing and are focsuing on enchanting soon!

this is why ive been waiting for the CK b4 i delve too deep in the game, its not designed for people like me
its designed for the mainstream and profit


only and only modders will ever make these games challenging not bethesda!
its not in their corporate strategy.

Wow, really....don't use perks? Man, some of you apologists are nutty.

Why should I have to bypass an entire game mechanic just to make the game SLIGHTLY difficult on MASTER.???

As someone said before, the problem in skyrim is that the OP mode is too obvious. We can't just look the other way without feeling stupid

Why do you think perk spending is mandatory?
It's optional.

And SLIGHTLY?
Apparently you haven't tried it.

You do know that if you don't spend them, you actually control the way your character grows.
If you spend them you become god like.

It's not self gimping, it's changing the way you develop a character.

This isn't a game where maxing skills out is the acceptable and only way to go.

Your choice.

Can't you see that and understand it?

well u are asking for bethesda to remove a game mechanic so wats the difference


this argument has to be one of the stupidest of all time


i ruined the game for myself who can i blame...lol

Because of the removal of attributes, perks do not seem as optional as in Fallout.

Okay, I don't think people are understanding something here. A person playing a game should not have to manufacture challenge in the game, or the game is unbalanced and too easy. If you jack the game up to the hardest difficulty setting and you can still make the game easy, there's a serious balancing issue. I understand your point if you say it's acceptable for Novice level to be easy, but some of you seem to think it acceptable for there to be ways to make even Master level easy. If any combination of skills or perks - any at all - "break" the game and make Master level easy, the developer hasn't done their job completely. That's part of the job of the developer - to balance the game to present a challenge to the player.

If you don't care about that, fine, but at that point you aren't playing a game, you're playing with a toy. Which is also fine. http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1335883-why-skills-wont-be-nerfed/page__view__findpost__p__20111561 Spore is a great toy, so I'm not knocking either developers or players if they produce or enjoy things like Spore - I do myself - but I have to admit that when I am fooling around with Spore I am not playing a game, I am playing a toy.

Well, the thing is, there are a lot of people who are playing Skyrim who don't want a toy, they want a game, and if there are combinations of skills or perks that can remove the challenge from even Master level, they don't have a game to play, they have a toy to play with. And that's just not acceptable. Those who want a toy - more power to them. They can turn the difficulty down so that there are no inconvenient challenges, and they can jump off mountains and collect 1000 cabbages and build forts of cheese and collect all the iron daggers in the game to their hearts content. I sympathize with these people, and at times I am one of them. I myself enjoy running around looking at the countryside at times, and that's playing with a toy in my book.

But those who want a game should have their game too, and for God's sake they shouldn't have to forgo certain parts of the game to make it a game with a challenge. For all those telling them to "take responsibility for their choices", creating a challenge is not the player's responsibility, it's the responsibility of the game developer.

So - if those who claim Master level is too easy if you take certain routes are correct, they have a legitimate complaint, and Bethesda concentrated on developing Skyrim the Toy at the expense of developing Skyrim the Game.

When did I do this?

I'm asking for AI that isn't dumber than Oblivion's. Why should I have to avoid using stealth on MASTER DIFFICULTY.

AI should INCREASE on difficulty!




How did I ruin the game by simply leveling up STEALTH normally? I did not exploit.

But they are.

lol so u have to make your self over powered becasue there are no attributes??

how about build a character that gives u a challenge and play like that?

but.... but...... that would be too easy.....

That's not the point. Creating the challenge in a game is the responsibility of the game developer, not the game player.

Actually, by spending perks, you are using a crutch that Bethesda put in so the game won't be too hard.
That's why they're optional.

So people who don't want a real challenge have an "easy button".

I wasn't complaining, just speculating as to why perks aren't as optional as in an attribute/perk game.
It's pretty hard to get OP with no sense of achievement without boring yourself out of your brain with grinding

What are you...7?

Same here.

I used to DM and GM a lot, and to achieve balance in table top gaming was hard work, and it required flexibility and consistency in decisions, and you had to be able to apply those 'on the run', so to speak. The ironic thing about a comparison between the old table top RPG's and computerised RPG's is that way back when everyone accepted that games master's decision was final, end of story. You wouldn't hear technical arguments, you wouldn't hear disagreements over rules interpretations, although you would get a lot of discussion regarding game layout etc....but the mechanics were rarely in dispute - if you played someone's game, you played by their rules.

If some of the attitudes expressed here were shown 'way back when', then those expressing them would have had a lonely time in the table top RPG world. Times have changed.

See, I disagree. The perks aren't supposed to be an "easy button", they're supposed to be a way to develop your character and concentrate their abilities in the way you want. I'm just saying that the developer should balance the game so that ABSOLUTELY NO COMBINATION of perks and skills can possibly remove the challenge to the game, at least on the hardest difficulty level.

Doesn't the problem with overpowered skills lie more within the playerbase than the game itself?

Think about it in a different way: Would the number of people who complain about this kind of thing be reduced if people would STOP telling each other/posting/reading all the best builds and exploits?

Honestly, I only look at the forums and the wiki to help me out of a tough spot or to see the new patches, maybe even to read a few story threads. People discovering balance issues is a good thing, usually, but I think a lot of people aren't realizing that they WILLINGLY exploited things. True, the ability to exploit things shouldn't necessarily exist in the first place, but you took it and ran with it, so it's your fault.

The company isn't going to tell you how/when to play your game, obviously. They aren't going to tell you not to grind your skill, but you did anyway. Perhaps that's the problem? Maybe playing the game more passively would help. Maybe only using smithing when necessary or enchanting when necessary would help out the people screaming "OP." You can argue this as a "handicap." I argue it as a design choice. I grinded smithing to 100 within a couple of hours and had some fun with it. Realistically, wouldn't it be less disappointing if I had gone out and killed things and gradually worked my way to 100, instead of forcing it all at one moment? The company probably did not intend for people to grind things to maximum as fast as possible.

Now, let's discuss challenge. Clearly you aren't understanding what skill level 100 implies. "Master" smithing. "Master" enchanting. You're playing the game on "Master." If you're a "master" of something, then that means you're either equally matched, if not better than your opponent. If you "mastered" enchanting and smithing and decided to make the most overpowered things you could imagine, doesn't that kind of mean you went out of your way(not so literally) to become the greatest? On top of that, your character is dragonborn... the ultimate dragon slayer. OF COURSE THE ANCIENT DRAGON IS GOING TO BE CAKE. It may be the hardest kind of dragon, but you're Dragonborn, and a master smith, and a master enchanter. How are you going to lose?

The game should be challenging, yes. Should it be this way without the player's input? Not necessarily. The "master" difficulty is hard, IF you play regularly and don't strive to become the best. Don't label that as handicapping, that's called being realistic. You're telling me that one person(your character) is some how so extraordinarily gifted that they mastered this, this, this, and that and is able to kill everything within days of his/her life? That's great, but not very realistic. Playing more like a roleplayer and less like a hardcoe powergamer might help?