Conceive of who the player character is...many times. The player character is a different person, every time I play, with different skills, because it has a different personality. Don't attempt to play a character that would do the things that make them so powerful that you feel no challenge.

If you want a challenge, then challenge yourself. Build a weak character and don't do the things that make you, in your subjective opinion, "over-powered". Make up a personality that WOULDN'T do those things. Doesn't want to, or can't. The point of the "role-playing" part of "role-playing game" is too be creative. Some players don't understand this, or can't understand this.

The game is the tool used to create your character (hammer & chisel or paint brush), and the skills and abilities are the material from which the object is created (the clay, stone or paint). In this case...a player character.

If that seems unbearably pretentious, please understand that "pretense" is the entire reason the game exists. It is what you are supposed to be doing! Pretending.

Anything that displays "pretense" is "pretentious". That's how the language works. To "pretend" is inherently "pretentious". Literally.

Right... a skill in an rpg IS a game mechanic.... but the term game mechanic doesent mean skill. Take my advice...Dont go to work and try talking to the bosses about game design... or your never gonna get promoted.... try n slip through the cracks.


You seriously still missing the point though.... the game is easy REGARDLESS of the skills/perks. With low lvl skills you syart off one-shotting bandits right out of helgen...

I doubt a game designer woud be making comparisons to a Super Mario power-up and a skill in an rpg lol, thats just stupid.

The game is eaiser than a normal rpg from the very begining.... it has nothing to do with the skills.

Let me ask you somthing... have you played the other Bethesda games?

Seriously... I dont think you have... or you would understand that in EVERY single one of them a leveled up character using just 1 of the crafting skills eliminated all challenge.

If you have a problem with bethesdas standard game design, then thats another issue entirly.

So then please inform me how I can challenge my created character who grew up as a Blacksmith and was in the military, thus he can make and upgrade all his own gear and is an extremely good fighter... but taking the perks in those skills make the game easier.

Or am I not supposed to make such a basic character?


I think you might be dyslexic...


And so your point would be...? You can one shot bandits right out of Helgen? Really, where? Doing what? Wait... you mean by Sneak attacking them... which I believe falls under both the Stealth and One-Handed Skills?


Translation: You have no actual counter-point.


Except... every combat mechanic is based on the Skills...


Yep.


Which is kind of the problem...?


Or, y'know, that's the actual issue at hand.

The usual risible claims from the same people, expecting Bethesda to do something because they can't handle choices and options and have no self restraint.

I suggest an additional difficulty level be installed..Call it 'I'm a WOW Balance freak' then limit all skills to 50. Problem solved.

I'm loving that the solution to a game losing its challenge is to tell people to svck more.

I agree. Now Bethesda have moved the "open world sandbox RPG" into the mainstream then other developers will see the potential and want to get "stupid rich" too. We as consumers will get to choose which formulas we prefer, and perhaps the genre is indeed mature enough to sustain multiple developers.

So my question is this;

Another developer comes along and matches what Bethesda have done in terms of complexity of game environment. Perhaps not so easy, but nonetheless entirely possible. In addition to this, said developer pays special attention to balance (regarding skills, object functionality, etc). Skills and objects are no longer mere decoration, they become meaningful and pertinent. Which version are you going to purchase? The version that is simply a graphically improved version of what it is today, or the version that is not only graphically improved but also possessing a balanced skill set with objects you can find that have a meaning/use as you progress through the game? Or both versions? Which version would sell most copies?

Are you suggesting that under such circumstances Bethesda will stick to the formula of ONLY improving graphics and complexity of environment, knowing full well that their competitors can match them on this front, whilst exceeding them on other fronts (such as balancing skills properly, finding meaningful uses for items, generating an interactive/morphable landscape, etc)?

I suspect at this point, if not before, the management at Bethesda will be screaming "WHO LEFT THE ****ING PIE NEXT TO AN OPEN WINDOW?!" - after all, everyone knows the neighbours are already famous for gaffling unguarded pies...

Of course instead of balancing skills properly Bethesda could hack together a quick botch, by adding several new difficulty levels. Master+, Master++, and WhatNormalDifficultyShouldHaveBeenInTheFirstPlace, just for us annoying types who think the definition of a game is one that ought to at least provide some remedial kind of challenge

LOL... so true

If you dont like bethesda games, why play them?

Thats like eating a candybar if you hate sweets, and then complaining about it.

No, I don't work in the games industry, I do that voluntarily.

I hardly think my disagreeing with you and others warrants insults, either.

The question is, are you having fun as you are claiming that issues are breaking the game for you? I think you are a bit confused...either you are enjoying the game, or you aren't.

It's now several months since release, a minority of people are claiming that certain skills are making the game too easy. With the possible exception of sneak, those other skills are essentially 'supportive' skills - smithing, enchanting and alchemy. And the thing about those skills is that you don't have to use them, or you don't have to use them to the point where they harm your game experience...but it is the player's choice if they do.

I'll concede that 'sneak' may be different, as it increases as you actually use it, in a passive manner...however, based on my experience, it has not made my character OP, nor really conferred any really noticeable disadvantage indicating it may be OP...however, I have not put one perk into it, so any effect I derive from it is purely on the base skill level...and it seems quite workable, and logical.

I hardly think that the base mechanics of this game need alteration due to the playing style of a very few people, because that is all that the problem really is: playing style. For the vast majority of players, they won't anolyse the game mechanics, they won't intentionally set out to create uber-characters that push the boundaries, but they will realise that their own character in this game is the stuff of legends, an uber being that has abilities and skills far beyond that of most if not all other individuals in the game.

I think that last point is something that a few people are forgetting....your character is a legend....a hero of old. It's up to the player as to how legendary they make him or her.

I'm sorry... so we have to choose between fun and challenging now? To challenge myself I have to restrict the amount of fun I can have? I wasn't aware that in a game with Warrior, Thief, and Mage general classes that, to have fun, I should never pick Thief because it would then make the game too easy.


I'd actually call it "Not a Moron."


Who says I don't like the game?

Dyslixic?

You seem to be the one having trouble following the bouncing ball...

You cant comprehend that the term "game mechanic" is inclusive... and can refer to many things.... the same way athe term " car-part" can refer to steering wheel but could also refer to a muffeler?

I think that you my have bigger problems than skyrim... complex concepts seem to be beyond you.... even ones that arent really all that complex to begin with.

Are you just joking?

I think you may just be overly argumentitive... rather than dense, but who knows... the internets a weird place.

I think we need to settle down a bit.

We're starting to flame each other, and that doesn't help.

A good argument is one thing, and we all come from different perspectives, but can we please keep it together...

I still enjoy playing the game overall because the game is fun. However it's no longer challenging. Putting God Mode on allows for loads of fun but absolutely no challenge. A game should be balanced in a way that players can make a powerful character but still be challenged. A player should not have to actively handicap themselves to do this, if a player has to actively handicap themselves then the developers did not balance the game well enough. It's that simple. The game, as closely as it can be, should be balanced for a player who does nothing but Speechcraft and Conjuration as opposed to nothing but Smithing and Two-Handed Weapons. I shouldn't have to, as a player, actively make the choice of "I won't take X skill because the game would be too easy." The game should be balanced so where a crafter, mage, warrior, or thief can all find challenge.

Period.

"You don't have to use them" is terrible design logic. Flat out terrible.


You mean the part where game mechanics in Skyrim include...

Item Prices
Player Health
Ingredients
Weapon Damage
Magic Resist
One-Hand Weapon
Stealth
Jail Time
Experience

Etc, etc?

So... your point is...?

"You can one shot people out of Helgen."

Yes... doing what?

Pssstt... this is what Beth posted a while back:

http://www.bethblog.com/2011/12/01/skyrim-what-were-working-on/

Who's laughing now?

Me....?

I'm laughing.

Problem is OP is speaking of "all these skills" when there are hardly any skills left. And there is little left in the game that serves as annoyance factors, as the target audience has widened to include the "casual gamers" who wants all the fun and none of the drawbacks. In dice games, the GM would seriously remind the players of the skills they lacked by setting up the game accordingly.

Take speechcraft. It feels like the only skill you get penalized for not taking perks in, especially early on, since you tend to run out of options to sell unless you have it - and its good for any characters wanting to gain some money to buy skills for. There are bonuses in lockpicking tree for everyone, but you never get penalized for not perking it up, thus it feels like a "useless skill". Reminds me of Dragonish and those kinds of skills that could have made the game more painful if you didn't have them, but it failed, was doomed "useless and redundant" by the fans, and then removed.

Btw, I don't mind skills that become slightly overpowered. My main gripe with it is how damned easy it is to raise them, in ways that doesn't make sense wrt realism (getting to master chef by cooking tea anology). Want to level up in armor skills, one handed or destruction? It takes time and effort to do so. Smithing in particular is completely effortless and climbs like a damned rocket.

I'll concede that it would be preferrable to have a game that provides a challenge when you maximise certain in-game skills and abilities, and you take the highest potential course of action, but what is the impact that would happen to the 'average' player?

To be honest, I haven't taken a good look at what the method of 'difficulty balancing' is, and that's partly because I do that when I'm testing, so I try to avoid it for games that I'm simply playing...a conscious decision to separate 'work' from 'play'.

At long last after 460+ hours, last night I uber upgraded a skyforge steel axe, which is now up around 130-140 hit points, with no enchantments. I have most of the one-handed perks, but only one of the hand-axe perks.

The reason I created what in effect is an 'axe of legend' is that I have finished the main quest, and I got tired of using a couple of enchanted weapons in general fights and I wanted to see more of the cut-scenes, plus I felt it was in-character for my role playing that my character smith his own weapon and create something that he wields in a legendary manner. However, the thing was that I shelved my magick axe before I created this one...and the reason for that was that with a 2 second paralyse and a level 20 fear enchantment on it, it was just too powerful (in its effects) to be fun to use after a while. One thing that did occur to me during that process was that the issues with OP weapons would probably be resolved (to a certain extent for a few people) if Skyrim had a VATS style cut-scene sequence, where I could take my uber hand-axe and hack down 3 or 4 people in the one cut-scene...that is the one thing from F3 that I really miss in this game.

i'm 130 hours into my second character, dark elf thief/assassin. Level 41. my smithing is 72, and i've upgraded every single thing i've picked up. my goal was to have a daedric bow and twin enchanted swords. my enchanting is 59. and i've enchanted a bunch of different things. in no way shape or form have i "gimped" myself. it took no overt effort to do this. i didn't have to think about not doing one thing or another. if you are doing it faster, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

It's a fair point, however that is in theory what lower difficulty settings are for. You should always balance for potential. You don't ignore something Just because not everyone can do it, the fact that you even can needs to be accounted for. If the potential exists for someone to do it, then in theory everyone, given enough ability or tenaciousness could achieve it within reason with varying degrees of effort.

I have friends, who have never played an Elder Scrolls game before, friends who are incredibly casual and inept at even calculating numbers or anything of the sort, tell me the game is just really easy. That is an issue in my opinion, if the game can really be that easy on even the base normal difficulty, for someone who has no idea what they are really doing.

Because the average player can find these same challenge issues. You don't have to be a "min/maxer" to find out the game isn't very challenging in various aspects.

The game needs to be balanced for all players. This balancing has to be done at the "average" level player because the default game difficulty is set just for that, the average player. Everything else, easier game or harder game, has to scale off of that. If "average" already shows that the game can be broken then there's little hope for super easy and super hard.

if you're overpowered you made yourself overpowered so stop whining. if people like to play overpowered, thats not your problem, you don't want anyone to have the option, you're trying to turn it around, and say "oh you're forced to make yourself weaker" well nobobdy twisted your arm and told made you max enchanting or smithing or sneak or any other skill out, if you're too powerful its your fault, its a real rpg/fantasy/adventure game, so in my gameworld i get to be powerful, if its too easy, the next playthrough or in game, i'll make adjustments, maybe use a less enchanted weapon, or weaker weapon, or not use some other type of enhancement, but thats MY CHOICE....thats not your choice for me. you want to dictate to other people on how hard it should be for them, maybe some 50 or 60 year old who plays the game..and i'm 49, doesn't want maximun challenge where you need fast reflexes etc, maybe i want to roleplay a master wizard who's old and phyiscally weak, so i use my magic to great effect...in your gameworld i wouldn't be able to do that..in my gameworld, i can do that.

No, the developers designed and put those skills into the game so people would use them. The fact that they trivialize the game is their fault, not the players' because they are the ones that made it that way. Ignoring a problem doesn't really make it go away.

A game is built like a complicated system. Because this system tries to account for different play styles, enemy a.i., difficulty, etc...it essentially becomes a giant puzzle in which each piece is directly or indirectly checked by another. If a piece is weak by comparison, you've compromised (or imbalanced) some aspect of that system. A good example is destruction spells don't scale in dmg, its static. The consequences of that are pretty obvious.

If I have to limit myself to steel armor, steel greatsword, no enchantments, no sneaking, no companion or summons, just so that I don't face roll everything in the game, then what exactly are my choices in character playstyle and weaknesses? Seems all these choices are made for me already if I don't want to spend the entire game holding W+left click to snore my way through?

What about the players who like being powerful? we should just get bent, then? Because you say so? Up the max difficulty, maybe, not across the board

Also, to the people constantly resorting to insults, I would like to know how that helps your arguments (protip: it totally doesn't)

EDIT: I agree with OP, obviously, just thought I should clarify

Wise words

I am going to try a definitive experiment in order to see whether Skyrim really is too easy, or as some are saying here, it is all down to the decisions we are making (say regarding skill perks, etc). I am already forced to gimp all my characters (no HUD, no selling/buying items, no optional companions, maximum Steel Armour, Master Difficulty, etc), yet am in no way, sense, shape or form even slightly challenged. I have not yet refused to use perks outright though, and I do use skills like Alchemy/Smithing (although not Enchanting)...

So here are my new gimping regulations;

1) Set Master difficulty.
2) No HUD (or map or fast travel).
3) No selling/buying ANYTHING, including skills/houses.
4) No optional companions.
5) No creating armour/weapons of ANY type.
6) Can only use what is either found or given from quests.
7) No perks of ANY form.

Problem is I think I am almost out of ways to gimp myself? If that does not work I will also try;

8) No Alchemy/Enchantment/Improving weapons or armour.
9) May only equip Roughspun Tunic and Footwraps.
10) May only equip a single Iron Dagger and Longbow.
11) No magic.
12) No stealth.
13) No shouts.
14) May not look at TV while playing (i.e., audio only).
15) All controls/maneuvers must be performed by my [censored] cat (no humans touching the controls).
16) May not suggest ideas or otherwise attempt to influence [censored] cat while playing.
17) May not place DVD in XBox while (not) playing.

Hopefully some kind of balance can be found by 7 given 8-16 involve somewhat excessive gimping even for me. If I can get to 17 then someone might need to remind me why I bought Skyrim instead of simply pretending I did. My cat is probably going to want answers too

Tell me... all the incessant complaining... has it done anything, anything at all to fix your "balance issues"?