I suppose I come under 'vet', D and D since the late seventies and all that. I have played a huge amount of games, admittedly more pen and paper than computer, and have come across many different stat/progression mechanics. My firm opinion, you make of mechanics what you will, and insisting the old way was better/more numbers is better/ a game is dumb entirely based on the streamlining of character stats is akin to a pensioner, regressed to babyhood, throwing his toys out of the bath chair in a tantrum.

Skyrim does fail as an rpg, quite seriously. This is not because of streamlining, or stat removal, you can define a build with the perk system (the amount of hatred shown to the word 'perks, rather than the system, is I think rather telling, things being judged not on what they are, but by associations). There is enough to have a character distinct from any other character. Stats are not the problem. The world is. Or rather the character's interactions with it.

Speechcraft reduced to mercantile and little more. Lockpicking useless, not per se, but made so by the ridiculously easy nature of the mini game. The paucity of spells making playing a mage unattractive for some. But most importantly, and please remember this is all my opinion, the obvious lack of recognition by npcs, lack of meaningful choices, lack of effect on the world.
There are so many ways this could be a better role player without adding any new (or reviving old) stats or mechanics. I honestly believe the cries for more stats to define a character, the return of previous (in their own ways flawed) systems, show a lack of imagination. Welcome to the world of knee jerk reactions. Change the interactions with the world, with the same (or indeed any) system of stats, you can have so much better a game.

If you had :
many more spell tomes
more branching quests
longer, less linear faction lines
more recognition for achievements, not universally, but when it makes sense
less followers, with more unique dialogue for each
if you really must have a mini game, a lockpicking game so hard that the lock pick perk tree is required for your character to succeed
more opportunities for a character who has perked speechcraft to actually use it, passing checks that others would fail
some content locked, no one may know you are in the DB, but would the Companions really accept the Arch-Mage into the Circle?
[edit : more directions, less follow the marker, as the post below just reminded me, and wonder of wonders, better directions based on speechcraft and standing with the npc giving the directions]

then you have so much more of a role playing game, without touching the character stats.

No. You're not seeing things. Of all the whiny complaints in this forum, the ones about the FT and compass features are the absolute dumbest.

1. If you don't like them, don't use them

2. If you don't like them, don't use them

3. If you don't like them don't use them

I wrote it three times because it never seems to sink in.

I love FT. I don't care to walk from Riften to Solitude and then all the way back to Riften. To me it would be a chore. For me, the game is more fun that way.

All games of this type borrow extensively from Gary Gygax' original D&D. Someone else mentioned they use to play D&D back when it was a pencil and paper game. I did too. I didn't get super into it, but I knew how to play it. And guess what, in D&D you didn't spend 6 hours rolling a 20 sided die in order to figure out how many steps you could take toward the next dungeon. You wanna know why? Because it would have been [censored].

And further more, what kind of explorer doesn't have a compass anyway? Or is unable to ask directions, OR HAVE A FRIGGIN' MAP???

I like you, Zen. We totally agree on this. .

Atria 2600?

I wasn't aware that the science of magnetism was developed in Tamriel?
And I can't ask for directions...
And why would a lost tomb of legend be marked on an ordinary map, doesn't the whole part of it being 'lost' indicate that it wouldn't be on maps anymore??

I guess it depends on what you mean by "get the most out of Skyrim."

I have enjoyed this game like no other I've ever played. The only RPG I ever enjoyed before this was FF8. I exclusively played FPS until I found this game. I'm not proud to say it, but I would wager that I have more hours playing Skyrim than all but a handful of people on this board. I have never been so involved in a video game before, so I would say that I have "gotten the most out of it."

And as an aside, being elitist and exclusionary about a video game make some of you guys look like complete douchebags.

this
oh, and more factions
ingame choices that differentiate character mean more than just picking a class does
a warrior in MW who joined the Imperial Legion felt quite different to a Redoran
thats because in most RPGs (Pendragon being a rare exception) game mechanics only determine what you can do, not why you do it
personality, beliefs, motivation - all the things that make a character actually a character rather than just a collection of stats are the product of the players imagination

Yup Bacillus...even back in our P&P days, it was taken as granted that people had a map....

People want to define things or add in things or denigrate what has been added because of three little letters...TES. As you said, all fantasy RPG's do derive way back to D&D, and despite what many people may think, it was not a complex character system...six attributes, all very simple: Strength...how much you can carry and how hard you can hit; Agility...how well you can climb and how well you shoot a bow; Intelligence...how well you cast spells, and what level you can cast. That's it...no skills, no nothing else. So, working on the logic of some posters on this and other threads, earlier TES games were destroying the genre long before Skyrim came along, and as Skyrim is simplifying the game along the lines of 'what you do equals who and what you are', it is actually far closer the original fantasy rpg concept than those games that have gone before it.

Even if you turn the HUD off, it's often blatantly obvious that quests are designed in a way that assumes the player will be following markers around. Unlike Morrowind's approach where quests are clearly designed under the assumption that players will be discovering things for themselves.


TES games aren't just RPGs. They're open-world RPGs. To me, that means there should be an immersive gameworld and a lot of emphasis on exploration, figuring things out for yourself, and yes, walking. If you just want to beam yourself straight to the action constantly, then really you've bought the wrong type of RPG. There are plenty of action-RPGs out there that are more about getting straight to the action.

You're right. An explorer should have an ordinary compass. Not a compass with GPS tracking. You cannot turn off markers without turning off the compass in Skyrim. That's the problem.

and remember...it's a game

I can't comment on other TES games but as for Skyrim it's a action adventure game and the figuring things out for yourself comment you are having a laugh right?Everything in the game is set up so a down syndrome monkey could understand it,I mean hell Paris Hilton could master this game in a couple of hours

Action-RPG is a broad term. Yes, TES games are action-RPGs in the sense that combat is in real-time and requires some degree of player involvement/skill... but combat has never been the main selling point of the series. Noone went and bought Morrowind or Oblivion because they thought the combat looked amazing. The open world and exploration, along with player freedom, are much more significant selling points.

In fact, if you buy a TES game specifically for any of the following things, you're a [censored] moron:

- Story
- Great action
- Quality over quantity with lots of polish

If you want story, go play the Witcher 2. If you want great action, go play Dark Souls. If you want an all-round mixture of both with lots of quality and polish over quantity, wait for Mass Effect 3.

Yes - hence why people like myself are complaining. The game treats you like an idiot with all the hand-holding. You should feel lost, confused and frustrated at times in an open-world RPG. You should have to learn your surroundings and figure things out for yourselves.

An inclination toward enjoying role playing games, plus knowing that Skyrim is an RPG, is all that matters. You don't need maturity and seasoning.

They didn't give you directions in Morrowind to give you an opportunity to explore. They gave you directions to get you to your destination. Directions were the only way they knew to get you there.

I actually think this is one of the few claims that Skyrim is bad as an RPG I have seen on the forum that actually goes beyond the fact that it is less numbers to look at and therefor the only one I largely agrees with. Skyrim would be a much better RPG with this.

yeah exactly. If the DLC treats me like a moron like the vanilla skyrim did.... ill be pissed

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