The only things Sheogorath says are these lines:

* You know, I was there for that whole sordid affair. Marvelous times! Butterflies, blood, a Fox and severed head... Oh, and the cheese! To die for. -Sheogorath Skyrim

* But only half right. I'm a mad god. The Mad God, actually. It's a family tittle. Gets passed down from me to myself every few thousand years. -Sheogorath Skyrim


I am sorry but that is no hard evidence that This Sheogorath is in fact the "Champion of Cyrodiil" or the "Hero of Kavatch", remember that he is a daedra God so he knows a lot of whats going on in the mortal plane, his first quote means that he is aware of the things that happened in the Oblivion Crisis, while his second Quote means that who ever entered through the portal in the Shivering Isle defeated Jyggalag and became the Mad God... we just dont know if it was the Hero of Kavatch.

Another example could be the Dark Brotherhood, you really think the Hero of Kavatch could have done all of those monstruocities? lets bring the Gray Fox into account, you think he would be willing to join the Dark Brotherhood when we all know Thieves Guild prohibit murder?

The quests were out there in Oblivion for the player to choose what to do, not necessarily means that THE CHAMPION did each and every single Quests out there, but this also does not means that the GrayFox quest and the Dark Brotherhood never happened, in the contrary Bethesda made it quite clear all these things did happened in the Oblivion Crisis, what i think it happened is that while the Champion was doing quests related to the Oblivion Crisis some Thief was doing the quests for the GrayFox and later became the GrayFox (who ever this thief was) and while this happened someone was asked by Lucien to join the Dark Brotherhood and all that stuff happened.

Just a week ago i found a Book in Skyrim which pretty much tell the story of Knights of the Nine, how they rebuild themselves and fought Umaril to his defeat and they never ever mentions the Champion of Cyrodiil... i just cant seem to find the damn book again, gona keep trying but if this the case then its a good sign that the Champion had his hands full with the Oblivion Crisis, and i also doubt he would even became the GrayFox and the head of the DarkBrotherhood and even had defeated Umaril too, thats just too much stuff for a single person, think about it you honestly think the Champion would do all that much evil stuff the Dark Brotherhood does or do all that much stuff Sheogorath requested from him? because Sheogorath is not a "Good" daedra and he is been known to be quite evil at times-

I've been trying to recreate this with no success!!! HE WILL NOT SAY IT AGAIN... GAH!!! Maybe I can just find the audio file somewhere...

As "silly" as it is, it still happens. And just because people don't believe it, doesn't make it not true. Of course, what I'm wondering is why the Watermellon Flood in the Imperial City at the end of the Third Era always goes unmentioned...

Daedric Princes are not omniscient when it comes to Nirn, as they had no part in creating it. This is something we've seen time and time again, and also something which has been directly challenged by the people of Nirn for longer than anyone can remember (Azura and the Box).

"I was there for that whole sordid affair."

Only the HoK/CoC was present during certain parts of Oblivion, notably the transformation of Martin, which is referred to in the line immediately before the above.

You still dont get it, IT DID HAPPENED... but we are arguing if it was the Champion of Cyrodiil the one who did all those things, i think the quests are out there for GAME MECHANICS but that does not means the Champion of Cyrodiil became the Mad God, the GrayFox, the head of the Dark Brotherhood, the Arch Mage from the Mages Guild and so on and on.

Youre Wrong, Chancellor Ocato was there and same with those blades guys.

No, he appears after the dragon-transformation thingy: "What happened? Where's Martin? I must congratulate him! Mehrunes Dagon is defeated! Cast back into Oblivion! We've won!"

Just because your CoC didn't following the path Beth has post determined as Canon doesn't magically make the Canon noncanon. Go YouTube sheos farewell speech, CoC becomes sheo wether that happens before death or the CoCs spirit becomes sheo after death. Make up whatever story you like for when the CoC changes but there is no "if" the CoC became sheo

Azura and the Box is neither lore on Daedra Princes nor the Dwemer.

"Publisher's Note
I was reluctant to publish the works of Marobar Sul, but when the University of Gwylim Press asked me to edit this edition, I decided to use this as an opportunity to set the record straight once and for all.
Scholars do not agree on the exact date of Marobar Sul's work, but it is generally agreed that they were written by the playwright "Gor Felim," famous for popular comedies and romances during the Interregnum between the fall of the First Cyrodilic Empire and the rise of Tiber Septim. The current theory holds that Felim heard a few genuine Dwemer tales and adapted them to the stage in order to make money, along with rewritten versions of many of his own plays.
Gor Felim created the persona of "Marobar Sul" who could translate the Dwemer language in order to add some sort of validity to the work and make it even more valuable to the gullible. Note that while "Marobar Sul" and his works became the subject of heated controversy, there are no reliable records of anyone actually meeting "Marobar Sul," nor was there anyone of that name employed by the Mages Guild, the School of Julianos, or any other intellectual institution.
In any case, the Dwemer in most of the tales of "Marobar Sul" bear little resemblance to the fearsome, unfathomable race that frightened even the Dunmer, Nords, and Redguards into submission and built ruins that even now have yet to be understood."

'Ancient tales of the Dwemer' part 1.

The central point here is that it is not established canon that the CoC became the madgod.
It is nowhere stated explicitly and a myriad of other meanings can be attributed to what Sheogorath says in Skyrim.
Nowhere does it say that the CoC is the same entity that mantled Sheogorath.

It's lore. The events portrayed in it are not canon, per say, but the presence of the book itself is lore. The contents are only important in that they demonstrate the denizens of Nirn have challenged the idea of Daedric Princes being omniscient for a long, long time. Another obvious (and present) example of this position is the Vigilants of Stendarr organisation.

Sheogorath was present for the Oblivion Crisis. He was on Nirn. Even the Daedric Princes who do mention 'watching you' in Oblivion never, ever claim to have been present. Skyrim's Sheogorath directly states that he was there for the Oblivion crisis and that he saw Martin become a dragon.

Lol people gettin their panties bunched because the CoC accends to being a daedrea. Guess anything less then replacing talos as the the ninth isn't a good enough fate for them.

Talos is boring and did some pretty awful things as a human. The forced abortion thing was notably cruel. Sheogorath is way more awesome.

Not so much being talos as taking his throne as the patron divine of "people can do awesome [censored] too"

Talos mantled Lorkhan, who was/is alsO cooler. -ponders- Maybe the player should just become Anuiel or Sithis? xD

On my part, Sheogorath's hints on Skyrim are perfectly enough to conclude that he was once the Champion of Cyrodiil. Bottom line is, people can do whatever reads on this they want. Also, Sheogorath's VA has strongly hinted that Sheo = CoC.

I'm glad someone swallowed the "Cicero = Adoring Fan" troll / major misunderstanding that was made on page 3. It took longer than I expected, though. Beth has put a reference in one of Cicero's journals that remind Oblivion players of Adoring Fan, for the tribute and funz. On the game's level, Cicero of course had no way of knowing that his comment might tell something to the player (there is no such thing to his character as "player". The comment is simply breaking the fourth wall and it's thus a little easter egg). I wouldn't be surprised if Adoring Fan got more tributes in the future games, so that the players would feel they'll never get rid of him.

I think the only characters that could be said are really back are, as far as I know, Shadowmere, and what's left of Sinderion (skeleton and a Dunmer farmer's memory). Lucien's personality and memories in his spectre, too, but I don't know if that's Lucien per se. Also, I never realized who Dervenin was until I read this topic! He surely should be the same guy as in Oblivion! Sheogorath might have something to do with his longish life (if it even is too long for a Bosmer anyway - mers live long). M'Aiq either doesn't count as he is an easter egg, or we can't be sure if he is the same M'Aiq or if they're descendants to each other. That's because M'Aiq might lie... We also can't judge from the looks/graphics alone, either, as the games have stylistical differences. I have even seen a claim that the current Sheogorath doesn't have the likeness of the former Sheogorath-turned-Jyggalag because they look different in their respective games (even other than the eyes, that is)... Oh boy...

One thing I once tried to check from the net is whether any Mythic Dawn members in Oblivion had the surname Vesuius, but I couldn't find any info on that. Does anyone remember the name Vesuius from Oblivion? Of course Silus can be related to a former Mythic Dawn member even with a different surname, or this old Mythic Dawn member might not have even shown in Oblivion - that member could be from whole a different time as far as we can say. Or, Silus could be a maniac who believes he's related to a former MD member. Much like my Altmer mage character is beginning to think he must be related to Mankar Camoran himself.

And then there's this whether Divayth Fyr (from Morrowind) is alive. I've seen a mention somewhere that it is "official" that he is alive, but I'd like a source, please! I'd have hard time believing he's dead, even if he never got a cameo on this game.

Yes, it is lore it just isnt lore on the Dwemer or the Daedra
Its a play adapted to book form to make money. It is fiction, and nothing more than fiction.

Sheogorath says he was there, but do you really think that at that moment that the worlds stood still and creation held its breath anyone of importance was not there?
In another light, as the aspect of madness Sheogorath must have been quite strong at that time.
Normally already present in anyone, during the crisis madness must have been so much more present.

I maintain that there is not one shred of evidence that says the CoC is the madgod.
Bethesda lore simply doesnt work that way, things are (almost) never unambiguous.

About the COC/Sheogorath thing:

KOTN is DLC, where as SI is an expansion. I don't think DLC would be canon so that would explain why the book doesn't state the COC as the 'hero' in it.

I never said it didn't. Read next time.

Maybe this will help with what is Canon and what is not canon.

For the record, if Tribunal and Bloodmoon are Canon, then so is the Shivering Isles. And yes, it is stated that the CoC became the Mad God.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Shivering_Isles

Please pay special attention to the "History" section. It's about as cut and dry as it gets.

But you guys don't understand.

The poor guy in the Pelagius quest is shufflin' through the Texas sand, but his head's in Mississippi.

What I'm getting at is that his mind isn't home and needs to come home, His mind is in Sheogorath's realm of madness. So the Sheogorath's aren't different. You're thinking in flat space not in curved space. I think especially Sheogorath's space is especially going to be warped. Hence, you are speaking with the CoC manifesting him/herself AS a Scottsman.

Once more, nobody is questioning if those events happened or not.
What I am saying is that it is stated nowhere that the CoC became the madgod.
Im sorry, but a fan written article on a fansite doesnt count in this regard.
I want to know what the people living in Tamriel think, and for that we have to go with what Bethesda provides us.
And nowhere is it stated that the CoC became Sheogorath.
I hold that it is at least a possibility that someone else entirely went through that portal and mantled Sheo.
There is at least as much evidence to support that as there is it was the CoC.

You do know that Beth never released an alternative start mod right? You always are that prisoner that has to deliver the Amulet of Kings to its inheritor.

Making an alternative start mod is not overly difficult, but Beth didn’t make one suggesting that the same individual is supposed to do all those things.

I dont understand what the start of Oblivion has to do with the price of fish.
That portal to the Shivering Isles was not only open to the CoC.

Canon lore only states that that person in the cells became the hero of Kvatch and the Champion of Cyrodiil.
Nowhere is it stated he became head of the thieves guild or defeated the Blackwood Company and since he wasnt the only person in Cyrodiil its entirely feasable that was someone else.
Im not saying that it was or was not, Im saying there is no proof to suggest either way.

But that's different to what you said when you first entered the thread. you were basically stating he wasn't the CoC because YOU more or less didn't didn't see them as the same person as it's not how you rolled your Oblivion character and now you're saying it's down to lack of evidence.

You've given 2 completely differing accounts. make up your mind what it's gonna be.

Yet only the Champion of Cyrodiil was "Accepted" by Sheogorrath. All others were driven hopelessly insane. If anything, the strongest source of lore indicates that the Champion of Cyrodiil and the Guy who Became Sheogorrath are one and the same - The game only lets you play as one person. There's no way, in the base game, to switch between The Guy Who Became Sheogorrath and The Guy Who Saves Tamriel. NPCs will call you all three titles - Champion of Cyrodiil, Madgod, and Divine Crusader. All three were the same person.

The way Sheogorrath spells it out leaves no ambiguity. Especially given precedent from previous games. The only game in the series that doesn't make EVERYTHING the PC does canon to that character is Daggerfall, and that's because, aside from the Main Quest, all quests are superfluous anyway. And with the main quest, the problem isn't "We don't want to say the Player Character did beat the game". The issue was that Daggerfall had EIGHT equally-viable, mutually exclusive endings. They didn't say "He didn't give it to Gortwog, because he may have given it to the Underking". They said that he did everything - even to the point of it not being possible in-game.

"My Agent of the Empire didn't give the Mantella to Gortwog" Actually, (s)he did (Otherwise, orcs would not be a playable race). AND Mannimarco (Otherwise, there would be no Necromancer's Moon). AND the Kingdoms of Daggerfall (Otherwise, Wayrest would rule all of High Rock), AND the Kingdom of Sentinel (Otherwise, High Rock would have conquered Hammerfell), AND the Kingdom of Wayrest (Otherwise, Daggerfall would rule all of High Rock), AND the Empire (Otherwise, High Rock and Hammerfell would have been independent), AND the Underking.

Saying that the CoC and Sheogorrath are not one-and-the-same for whatever reason is like arguing that the guy who re-discovered the Numidium and Mantella, and the Guy who exorcised Lysandus' ghost were not the same because of "lack of evidence" explicitly saying they were.

Or, that the guy who killed Almalexia was not the Nerevarine (It's just rumor that the Nerevarine was the one to kill Almalexia)

That is what's written in the Elder Scrolls.

I'll start again - Whoever became Madgod, by evidence within the game itself: A) Had to return the Amulet to Jauffre (And therefore find Martin, and from there do the rest of the Main Quest), or carry the Amulet with him, until such time he has to become Champion of Cyrodiil before the Daedra completely take over the world.