Yes, its speculative, not to mention a choice whether your avatar(s) are Sheo or not.

Bloodmoon and Tribunal are canon why would Shivering Isles not be canon?

Something has to become canon I am afraid, beth cant keep everything in the dark. Nerevarine killed his formal wife, and defeated Dagoth Ur. Martin defeated Dagon, and CoC became the mad god.

I think there were different Heros at the one, one lesser hero took on Umaril, the Champion of Cyrodiil took on Dagon and another Hero took on Sheogorath.

I find it highly doubtfull he was able to do all that much crap at the same time, also i doubt that the noble and honorable "CoC" would do all that much crazy stuff for Sheogorath, i really think they were different Characters.

Skyrim Sheogorath also MENTIONS he witness the defeat of Dagon, not that he was part of the defeat, he would have mentioned how much many Dagon Troops he smoked if that was the case, also Shivering Isles happened AFTER the Defeat of Dagon, so how could the champion who was not yet Sheogorath seen all that? Either it was someone else or Sheogorath has powers to travel back in time.

Also we know the Champion was not the one who defeated Umaril, this we know because i found a book in Skyrim about the Knights of the Nine and they never mentioned the Champion... so what gives that IT FORCEFULLY must be the Champion who became Sheogorath too? so the honorable and worthy Champion would just become a wack? I DOUBT IT.

Aside from your desire for it to be this way, what are you basing that on?

And yeah he witnessed it, you didn’t actually do anything after you got into the temple. You just looked on as Martin did his thing and became the best out of all the Septims, with the first runner up being Pelagius of course.

edit: there are reasons to believe that CoC wasn’t very honorable. What Sheo says suggests that he was a member of the thieves guild and the dark brotherhood. And the cheese guild, the best guild of them all I tell ya.

Its cant be proven either way, tis speculation. I'm not saying SI wasn't lore, but I'm saying we don't have enough info about what happened after, much less about the whole SI incident itself, and player character canon afterwords.

What evidence? he just says he was there at the time, he never states that HE WAS THE ONE WHO HELPED MARTIN.

No he never mentioned or suggested anything, he just reffer to some things that happened at the Time.

That's my point. There's no conclusive evidence either way. There are hints and 'evidence', just nothing conclusive. Reread my post(s).

The possibility is out there floating, but there is no evidence of this people just keep claiming.

This is a TES game, if you have a mindset that requires to have solid and abundant evidence for everything then Nirn does not exist lol. Seriously it’s all just some uber gods dream, all of it! The moment you relize it you go poof and get deleted from the dream so everyone keeps thinking that it is all real. Don’t believe me? Read up on CHIM lol.

I don't need the mindset, I'm just stating things, opinions, and some facts. That its rather...agnostic for lack of a better word.

Agree, my char its not even the Dragonborn, she cant use shouts and wants nothing to do with the main storyline but she does adventures everyday, i never did the whiterun dragon quest and therefor no one reffer to me as the Dragonborn, i mostly do sidequests and bounty.

Shivering Isles was not designed for a different character, just like Tribunal wasn’t designed for a different character. You could choose not to do it, but it doesn’t mean that it isn’t there. One guy or gal did all those things which is what makes it EPIC. To partition the job out to numerous heroes is just lame.

I make RPs that are more NPC than Hero, to be honest. I make so many that there are heroes, but that gets old after dozens of builds. I have like 9-11 RPs in Skyrim, and like you, not one is Dragonborn.

I never said someone didn't do those things.

There seems to be a common aesthetic of denial among the IL crowd about this issue**, and I'm actually curious as to why. First, people denied the ending of SI, and somehow walked away or turned down their speakers for Jyggys closing speech. Then people posted or wrote articles about why it didn't happen, or how it doesn't matter if it did happen, so that somehow it doesn't count. Now people are denying official affirmation (of the SI ending) from within the game. Why not just fork all the lore after Morrowind? And why is this particular issue such a big deal?

**Not trying to be harsh, just direct. I still disagree about the Dwemer disappearance, but I've conceded that it's most likely a personal lore fantasy. So I'm guilty, too, just on a different issue.

Shadowmere and Lucien Lachance make cameos.

Its fact that the Champion was not the one who rebuild the Knights of the Nine, dont you read the books in Skyrim? they never mentioned the Champion, so this idea is not out of proportion.

What you claim as evidence are vague references of things that did happened at the time, sorry but no matter how much you want to push on us that the Champion became Sheogorath with the "evidence" its just not going to happend, if you liked your char as Sheogorath fine, my char on Oblivion was never the Champion because i never followed the main quest too and my char even aknowledge the existence of the Real Champion of Cyrodiil, how can you explain that? i thought TES games were as BE WHO YOU WANT TO BE, GO WHERE YOU WANT TO GO.

Give HARD EVIDENCE that Skyrim Mad God is the Champion, not vague crazy comments from... a nut God.

Oh and i am not denying the Lore of Shivering Isle, all that did happened because Bethesda made it official, but i doubt the Champion became the Mad God because there is no evidence of what people been claiming all along about Champion being Sheogorath, also not every single Player Character became the Champion or even the Mad God, i tried shivering isle for a while and went back out, never looked back.

How did my char became Sheogorath if she wasent even the Champion? to top that... she didnt even meet Sheogorath, so stating that my char turned into that guy from Skyrim is just ridiculous... Yes, thats Sheogorath! he did defeated Jyggalag and became the Mad God... yes, WHO EVER THAT IS... because thats not my character and for the 100th Time, there is no evidence Skyrim Mad God is also the Champion.

Well, if you haven’t done it I guess I have to resign from the argument. Clearly the lore and the canon revolve around your actions oh great master lol. I hope you played morrowind and killed Dagoth in every play through kos if you haven’t that means that the guy is still out there, scheming.

Which is kind of awesome.

Cicero is the adoring fan.

And just as annoying as ever imho.

My 0.02$

The campaign of games, expansions and DLCs are canon.

The Oblivion Crisis happened. Mehrunes Dagon attempted to invade Tamriel and was banished back by Martin Septim and a player character remembered as the Champion of Cyrodiil.
The Shivering Isles happened. A player character serving as an agent of Sheogorath ended the Greymarch curse, restored Jyggalag to his true self, and inherited the Prince of Madness mantle.
Regardless of these two player characters being or not the same...
... The Sheogorath met by a player in Skyrim can reasonably be assumed to be the Prince of Madness a player came to be after Shivering Isles.* Otherwise, there would simply be no Daedric Prince of Madness to meet at all.
Since this Skyrim Sheogorath strongly hints at witnessing first hand the Oblivion Crisis, the various guild quests, and claims Martin as his favorite Septim....
... There is a good case for the Champion of Cyrodiil and the Prince of Madness being the same player character.

*Understand that in the Elder Scrolls universe, faith plays a part in shaping Gods. It is reasonable to assume that through the http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FisherKing, over time, whoever inherited Sheogorath's duties became indistinguishable from the original.

There is no evidence the Shivering Isles expansion didn't happen. Its mentioned in a book on the 3rd era that the Knights of The Nine were reestablished. Why would that expansion happen but not the Shivering Isles. In the Skyrim quest Sheogorath mentions Haskill, if the Shivering Isles expansion didn't occur then Haskill wouldn't have been killed by Jyggalag when the cycle repeated its self.

Provide a shred of evidence the events of the expansion didn't happen. Until you do The main quest of the Shivering Isles is canon.
De-Nile its not just a river in Egypt or Frasier's brother.

So you admit The Champion became the new madgod! If the events of th shivering isles occured then it was the Champion. Provide HARD evidence that it didn't. Unless said otherwise by the developer one must assume the events of ALL expansions occured. If the events of the Shivering Isles weren't canon then Bethesda would have said so, like LucasArts says the what if darkside DLC's for the Forced unleash were non-cannon. Or Rockstar said Undead NIghtmare was non-canon with Red Dead Redemption.

Until you can prove the DLC was non-canon its an absolute fact The Champion became the new madgod. There is no logical dispute, as your choices are meaningless. If you didn't do it in your game then it must have happend afterwards. So doubters we can provide evidence that the CoC became the new madgod. We have proof, so until you provide proof of your own(that has nothing to do with your personal decisions) We are right and your in deniel.

Ma'iq is pleased that this conversation shifted away from Ma'iq's age. Ma'iq thinks people not ready to know the truth about Ma'iq.

Ahh, this ps3 browser svcks. how does it confuse submit modified post with quote myself?