Any living characters from oblivion beside ma'iq in skyrim? : V - Skyrim

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:56 am

Yet only the Champion of Cyrodiil was "Accepted" by Sheogorrath. All others were driven hopelessly insane. If anything, the strongest source of lore indicates that the Champion of Cyrodiil and the Guy who Became Sheogorrath are one and the same - The game only lets you play as one person. There's no way, in the base game, to switch between The Guy Who Became Sheogorrath and The Guy Who Saves Tamriel. NPCs will call you all three titles - Champion of Cyrodiil, Madgod, and Divine Crusader. All three were the same person.

The way Sheogorrath spells it out leaves no ambiguity. Especially given precedent from previous games. The only game in the series that doesn't make EVERYTHING the PC does canon to that character is Daggerfall, and that's because, aside from the Main Quest, all quests are superfluous anyway. And with the main quest, the problem isn't "We don't want to say the Player Character did beat the game". The issue was that Daggerfall had EIGHT equally-viable, mutually exclusive endings. They didn't say "He didn't give it to Gortwog, because he may have given it to the Underking". They said that he did everything - even to the point of it not being possible in-game.

"My Agent of the Empire didn't give the Mantella to Gortwog" Actually, (s)he did (Otherwise, orcs would not be a playable race). AND Mannimarco (Otherwise, there would be no Necromancer's Moon). AND the Kingdoms of Daggerfall (Otherwise, Wayrest would rule all of High Rock), AND the Kingdom of Sentinel (Otherwise, High Rock would have conquered Hammerfell), AND the Kingdom of Wayrest (Otherwise, Daggerfall would rule all of High Rock), AND the Empire (Otherwise, High Rock and Hammerfell would have been independent), AND the Underking.

Saying that the CoC and Sheogorrath are not one-and-the-same for whatever reason is like arguing that the guy who re-discovered the Numidium and Mantella, and the Guy who exorcised Lysandus' ghost were not the same because of "lack of evidence" explicitly saying they were.

Or, that the guy who killed Almalexia was not the Nerevarine (It's just rumor that the Nerevarine was the one to kill Almalexia)

That is what's written in the Elder Scrolls.

I'll start again - Whoever became Madgod, by evidence within the game itself: A) Had to return the Amulet to Jauffre (And therefore find Martin, and from there do the rest of the Main Quest), or carry the Amulet with him, until such time he has to become Champion of Cyrodiil before the Daedra completely take over the world.

Ill accept your argument about the acceptance of Sheogorath.
Yet again, there is no source that says it has to be the CoC.
It could have been any soul with the correct aptitude.
There is no reason to assume that the person who had the amulet actually went through the portal.
That you did in the game is no excuse, for the exact same reason you mention the different endings of Daggerfall.
When it comes to the Nerevarine killing Almalexia, this is different.
The Nerevarine was the only one with such power, the only one directed by Azura, and later accounts place him at Mournhold during the time of the fabricants. When it comes to him going to Solstheim, again, I find that debatable.
There are no accounts that do similar for the CoC.
What Sheogorath says can be interpreted differently, it really isnt hard as his actual lines are very ambiguous.

Your point about the acceptance of the madgod being paramount as to not being driven bat-[censored] crazy Ill accept as a strong point towards the CoC being the mantler, but it is still conjecture.

My main objection with the person(s) in the game doing everything in the game as canon is that I find it boring and therefore wrong. I just find it unacceptable from a story-telling perspective.
The lore of Tamriel is always ambiguous enough for many interpretations and this is no exception.
Its quite possible that is is true, but there just is no evidence.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:05 pm

That you did in the game is no excuse, for the exact same reason you mention the different endings of Daggerfall.

Except, in Daggerfall, it's assumed the same person did ALL Those different endings. What broke the dragon wasn't ambiguity of what he did - it's that he managed to pull it off by giving the totem to ALL possible recipients.

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:48 am

Except, in Daggerfall, it's assumed the same person did ALL Those different endings. What broke the dragon wasn't ambiguity of what he did - it's that he managed to pull it off by giving the totem to ALL possible recipients.

I always thought it was the other way around.
All the endings happened, because of the dragonbreak.
Agh, thinking about non linear time is headache inducing.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:57 pm

I can't think of any other characters from Oblivion, but there is a living character from Morrowind...can't remember her name, (something) Sarethi, a female dunmer alchemist, who previously was the alchemist in the foreign quarter of Vivec. She has a farm in The Rift.

And this whole thing about meeting the CoC in Skyrim is dumb. Bethesda has always purposefully avoided mentioning specifics about previous games' heroes precisely because every player did it differently and may have passed over certain things. For example, after Morrowind they never specify the Nerevarine's race, gender or profession, or that of the Emperor's Agent in Daggerfall or the Eternal Champion from Arena. The only reason to assume you meet the CoC is because you also meet Sheogorath, whom the CoC may or may not have mantled depending on player actions in Oblivion. The idea that the Sheogorath you meet in Skyrim is also the CoC is tenuous at best.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:37 pm

The fact the Shivering Isles was made is evidence that its canon, the only time events of a DLC can be considered non-canon is when the developler says so. But you people aren't denying those events happend your instead taking the ridiculous position that it wasn't the CoC. Here's the thing. You have no evidence that it wasn't. The fact the expansion exists for Oblivion is proof the CoC followed the questline. If the Wrap of the West from Daggerfall(and the very design of the questlines in Oblivion) has taught us anything, Bethesda likes to cater to the player who goes for as much 100% completion as possible.

The burden of proof rests on the doubters. Provide evidence, references something that can imply CoC didn't become the madgod. There is no evidence to support the events of the Shivering Isles unfolded in anyway except the the CoC performed them. The madgod in skyrim however makes a few remarks that imply he was the main character of the first game.

So I once again challenge he doubters to provide actually proof. We have proof you do not end of story.
Fact: There is evidence the CoC became the madgod and there is NOTHING to disputed that, until you can provide it your all in deniel.

I can't think of any other characters from Oblivion, but there is a living character from Morrowind...can't remember her name, (something) Sarethi, a female dunmer alchemist, who previously was the alchemist in the foreign quarter of Vivec. She has a farm in The Rift.

Athyn Sarethi from Morrowind is dead, her farm belongs to her daughters.

The only reason to assume you meet the CoC is because you also meet Sheogorath, whom the CoC may or may not have mantled depending on player actions in Oblivion. The idea that the Sheogorath you meet in Skyrim is also the CoC is tenuous at best.

So the madgod referencing having done several of the guild questlines and having been there for the whole affair with Martin means nothing.

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:09 am

The fact the Shivering Isles was made is evidence that its canon, the only time events of a DLC can be considered non-canon is when the developler says so. But you people aren't denying those events happend your instead taking the ridiculous position that it wasn't the CoC. Here's the thing. You have no evidence that it wasn't. The fact the expansion exists for Oblivion is proof the CoC followed the questline. If the Wrap of the West from Daggerfall(and the very design of the questlines in Oblivion) has taught us anything, Bethesda likes to cater to the player who goes for as much 100% completion as possible.

The burden of proof rests on the doubters. Provide evidence, references something that can imply CoC didn't become the madgod. There is no evidence to support the events of the Shivering Isles unfolded in anyway except the the CoC performed them. The madgod in skyrim however makes a few remarks that imply he was the main character of the first game.

So I once again challenge he doubters to provide actually proof. We have proof you do not end of story.
Fact: There is evidence the CoC became the madgod and there is NOTHING to disputed that, until you can provide it your all in deniel.

Once more, the point is not canonicity.
Nobody is denying those events happened.
What is in question here is the canonicity of the CoC being the madgod.
A theory that may hold some merit, but for which there is zero proof, and for which no proof shall likely ever be given, as TES lore just doesnt work that way.

You say that I need to provide proof, that is the point.
There is no proof to say either way who mantled the madgod.
There just isnt any.
A few lines about a butterfly and a fox are not proof.
In my posts above I have given several equally valid conjectures about what those lines may imply.
It could be anything.

'The fact the expansion exists is proof the CoC followed the questline' no such thing.
There are no records that say either way what happened in the Shivering Isles at the moment of the Oblivion crisis.
With reasonable certainty we can say that the madgod became Jyggalag, and that someone mantled Sheogorath and defeated him.
It could have been anyone who felt the calling and was favoured by Sheogorath, it could have been Haskill for all we know.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:12 am

snip

The Mad God makes reference to himself as being the CoC "You are the best Septim that's ever ruled. Well, except for that Martin fellow, but he turned into a dragon god, and that's hardly sporting... You know, I was there for that whole sordid affair." He then makes references to a couple of the guild quest lines. That is proof no matter how much you wish it away.

If the events of the Shivering Isles occured then there is no reason to doubt the Champion wasn't the one to perform them. The burden of proof lies on you. Is the new madgod Jauffre? Baurus? It has to have been someone who was there for the whole sordid affair which really limits the potential canidates. And if it wasn't the CoC there would be no reason to make the references.

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:58 am

Well, I know Athyn is dead...Athyn also was not an alchemist nor lived in Vivec. I was misremembering...I thought Avrusa Sarethi was the Dunmer alchemist in the foreign quarter, but she wasn't...in Skyrim she just said she owned an alchemy shop in Vivec before she fled to Cyrodiil and then to Skyrim, and when she said that my brain went "ding! Morrowind!" But no. =/

And I was all excited, too. lol. In that case, it seems there are no verifiable NPCs from earlier games...

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:27 pm

The Mad God makes reference to himself as being the CoC "You are the best Septim that's ever ruled. Well, except for that Martin fellow, but he turned into a dragon god, and that's hardly sporting... You know, I was there for that whole sordid affair." He then makes references to a couple of the guild quest lines. That is proof no matter how much you wish it away.

If the events of the Shivering Isles occured then there is no reason to doubt the Champion wasn't the one to perform them. The burden of proof lies on you. Is the new madgod Jauffre? Baurus? It has to have been someone who was there for the whole sordid affair which really limits the potential canidates. And if it wasn't the CoC there would be no reason to make the references.

Which means he was there, but not that he was the CoC.
As I stated above, a conjecture at least equally valid is that in those crazy times the Daedra who normally already is present in everyone, was even more present now.
Nowhere is it said he was literally, corporeally, there.
Conversely it could have been any soldier, any citizen of the Imperial City, it could even be that the portal to the Shivering Isles worked as a television sattelite so that Sheo could watch everything from inside his own castle. We just do not know.
I like the theory Sheogorath is Haskill, which has been theorycrafted over in the past on the lore forum.
There is no 'burden of proof' because there is no proof. I dont have to wish anything away, its all right there in the text, namely no proof. Can be interpreted any number of ways.

Personally, I find it highly unlikely that one person did all those things and as far as I am concerned the only thing that is truly set in stone about the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Oblivion_Crisis is in this book Ive linked and that only speaks of him being the hero of Kvatch and the Champion of Cyrodiil.

It is fine to comjecture that the CoC became the madgod, but not to insist that it is set in stone that without any doubt he was, because once again not a single shred of evidence points one way or the other.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:09 pm

I like the theory Sheogorath is Haskill, which has been theorycrafted over in the past on the lore forum.

During the skyrim quest Sheogorath makes mention of Haskill and the trouble he can get into when he's gone.

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:50 am

During the skyrim quest Sheogorath makes mention of Haskill and the trouble he can get into when he's gone.

I know

Wouldnt be the first time a piece of a Daedra got split off and ran amok.
TES lore is fluid enough to allow such theorycrafting.
Very little is truly set in stone.

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:06 am

I know

Wouldnt be the first time a piece of a Daedra got split off and ran amok.
TES lore is fluid enough to allow such theorycrafting.
Very little is truly set in stone.

By that logic the CoC could have become he madgod and spat out his mortal half. Allowing for the CoC to have both become the madgod and remained mortal.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:06 pm

By that logic the CoC could have become he madgod and spat out his mortal half. Allowing for the CoC to have both become the madgod and remained mortal.

Since were dealing with Sheogorath here, why not?
But a hypothesis is not a theory.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:54 pm

It's a fictional world designed by people. If the people who made the game decide to make references to something occuring in the past game, then it happened. It's only logical to assume that the developers consciously decided to make Sheogorath say that so we would know SI happened.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:37 pm

Looking at him, and his speech and how it was worded. Just screamed he was CoC. I was 99.9% convinced...

but.01% says...
Only issue i have is that CoC is never mention as disappearing or leaving, or going to SI and not comming back.

No one really mentions that CoC went poof. (inless i missed something) If there is mentioned of CoC kinda vanishing, then bam.. thats 100% to me. lol.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:38 pm

Yup. But it doesn't bother me when I see what my character turned into.

Whether you like it or not, when Bethesda moves on to the next game, they have to set the lore in stone. Just because you don't like it, that doesn't mean it's not still lore. Well, at least until Bethesda decided to retconn it in the next game.

plus sheogorath can be anything he wants so it doesn't matter.

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:35 am

Well, I know Athyn is dead...Athyn also was not an alchemist nor lived in Vivec. I was misremembering...I thought Avrusa Sarethi was the Dunmer alchemist in the foreign quarter, but she wasn't...in Skyrim she just said she owned an alchemy shop in Vivec before she fled to Cyrodiil and then to Skyrim, and when she said that my brain went "ding! Morrowind!" But no. =/

To my shame, I also got the picture of there being a Dunmer alchemist in Vivec named Sarethi. But of course they're the traditional Redoran family, with Athyn being the only smart Redoran Council member in my humble opinion. There are http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Sarethi_Ancestral_Tomb#Family_Members in Morrowind, btw.

And yes, sisters Sarethi from Skyrim are linked to what is a pile of references from the older games. Adura and Avrusi should be descendants of the Redoran Sarethi since they came from Morrowind as well. Is there a clarification for this in their dialogue? Anyway, they were also the ones who knew Sinerinde, that Nirnroot guy from Oblivion whose remains and Field Journal can be found in Skyrim (and who, again, demonstrates that High Elves can live for long, especially as he didn't die of old age alone, suggests the Falmer arrows piercing his body).

PLUS!

Found a guy from Skyrim who apparently isn't in Oblivion, but was alive nonetheless as there was http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Immortal_Blood.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Movarth_Piquine

Someone had apparently found him already, but whattheheck.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:37 pm

Found a guy from Skyrim who apparently isn't in Oblivion, but was alive nonetheless as there was http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Immortal_Blood.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Movarth_Piquine

Someone had apparently found him already, but whattheheck. :tongue:

About this guy, I wonder whether he's friendly when you yourself are a vampire? Can anyone confirm this?

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:44 pm

About this guy, I wonder whether he's friendly when you yourself are a vampire? Can anyone confirm this?

I sure can't, although he shouldn't. He got deeply fooled by a Cyrodilic(?) vampire before, why would he trust any again? :smile:

That said, why is he living with other vampires? They are supposedly of his own kin, though.

(In my eyes, the book strongly hints that Movarth Piquine was a vampire himself all along, by the way.
- "I came to learn that Movarth Piquine could see in the dark almost as well as the light - an excellent talent, considering his interests were exclusively nocturnal."
- "[Movarth] was pale to the point of opalescence with a face that looked like it had once been very handsome before some unspeakable suffering. The dark circles under his eyes bespoke exhaustion, but the eyes themselves were alert, intense, almost insane."
- His smile looks more like a grimace and he seems to act a bit stiff
- He was a Fighers Guild teacher "once" - no comment on why he isn't anymore, or anything about his recent actions. But why is he so obsessed with the topic vampirism? Hmm...
- He sleeps during the day, and always happens to show up only after midnight.)

Shouldn't the vampire-in-monk's-disguise-expert-of-vampirism have recognized him all along? I bet he did, even. But what happens to a vampire who gets bitten again? :huh:

Anyhow........ Would truly be nice if someone tried to sneak-talk with Movarth (can this even be done in Skyrim? I think not), trying to talk to him as a vampire, or otherwise search the files if he has any lines, or anything. I'd sure like to know if he has anything to say. :smile:

I guess he's respawnable. D: I went to his lair - and he was there! Although I have already done the quest to kill him! The cave seems not to be clearable.

Movarth noticed me even if I was invisible. Also tried to load an earlier save, get vampirism, do a split save, wait until the decease kicks in and then go talk to him. Unfortunately I didn't get the decease so I gave up. I found no way to reason with the guy. Even tried to yield when he had so little energy left that he went crouching. Nothing. After healing a bit, he attacked even when I was unarmed. Figures. Still to try: be a vampire and talk to him, or hax into text files and see if there's anything for Movarth Piquine.