That's not what I said at all. I'd side with a guy who murdered one person rather than a mass murdering genocidal maniac. I certainly wouldn't pretend the two are equivalent or don't matter. Why do you?


Something is wrong with IGNORING his bad side. I've not denied the bits of him that are good. I don't see why you act like the really bad stuff is inconsequential.


The Empire is a culture and civilization that transcends any given leadership and that is what I was talking about. You act like some bad leaders means it should be abandoned. Not so. Further, you have a verybiased view of imperial history that isn't supported by Lore. You ignore the hard realities and act like if people just WANTED bad enough then things will go their way.

BTW, it is funny how the Stormcloaks revere Talos, but seek to abandon the Empire, his greatest legacy.

It's said that they're simply not allowed to live anywhere outside the Gray Quarter. Either they move out of Windhelm or live in the Grey Quarter.

if they can't live outside the gray quarter ever since Vvardenfell erupts, then there's really nothing extraordinary that Ulfric does to them. Except perhaps the whole no-technical-support thing

The Khajiit caravans are silver-tongued smugglers - There's a reason they aren't allowed in the cities.

Begging your pardon, but what TES lore or historical TES canon (aka events that have actually occured in previous TES games like Arena, Daggerfall, Battlespire, Hammerfell, Morrowind or Oblivion) is this hypothesis based on?

You do of course, understand that saying there's bad blood between the Redguards of Hammerfell and the Empire is a complete understatement? You do of course, realize:

-that even though the Aldmeri Dominion "lost the battle" and gained zero territory in the Great War, that this loss triggered the Civil War now raging across Skyrim?

-that even though the Aldmeri Dominion "lost the battle" and gained zero territory in the Great War, that this loss has greatly weakened the Empire (aka human power across Tamriel)?

-that a lack of decisive Imperial leadership was what was responsible for triggering the Civil War now raging across Skyrim?

-that the Imperial's impotent leadership of the empire was what caused 5 of it's 9 provinces (i.e. Valenwood, Elyswer, Morrowind, The Black Marsh, and Hammerfell to secede from the empire? And now it apparently seems to be Skyrim's turn--starting to see a pattern here? That the same impotent Imperial leadership is clearly what has been responsible for the civil war, because it has been clearly underminig what's left of the empire?

-that even if the Imperials win--regardles of what side the mighty Dovahkiin chooses to champion---the resulting "unified empire" will be so incredibly weak and unstable, that the Aldmeri Dominion will end up "wining the war"? Because if this comes to pass, the balance of power in Tamriel will shift directly into Aldmeri hands?

My God can you even comprehend the underlying significance of what the Aldmeri presence in Skyrim means to all Nords in general in Skyrim? That the Dominion presence is an ominous reminder of when the Snow Elves attempted to anhilate all of the first humans who settled in Skyrim? That the balance of power in Tamriel is slowly begining to shift toward the Elves? And that if the Elves "win the war" this will mean the extinction of the entire human race in Tamriel?

Have you had the pleasure of meeting any of the Thalmor Justicars in your travels while adventuring on the roads lately? If so, have you had the opportunity to experience their incredibly sweet disposition? Are you finally begining to understand why the Elven Thalmor Dominion gets a genocidal rush second to orgism eveytime they see a human??

so despite all of the "racial bigotry" and "mistreatment" by Ulfric and the Nords, oddly enough the Dunmer simply won't just emigrate to Cyrodiil where they can live happily ever after with the open minded Imperials.

Hmmm......

I've never met a TES race so obsessed with a self-persecution complex. And of course Ulfric is holding a crossbow to their head and stopping them from leaving the city. If only they could depart for Solstheim and be with the majority of their refugee brethern, who are but a stone's throw away to the southeast. Oh no--that wouldn't work--Ulfric's got all of his facist Stormcloaks barring all exits at the city gates to prevent them from ever leaving the city.....

Then again, if the Dunmer got off their @$$, worked on some of that insufferable hubris and swallowed their Lucifer Pride, maybe they could organize a civil rights protest with the Argonians and Khajiits who're perma-banned from the city. There. That would reveal just how much of a facist the Bear of Markarth really is to all Skyrim. The Moot would never consider him as the new King--it wouldn't be PC. Then again, maybe--just maybe---the Dunmer could convince the Hist to permit their immigration back to Vvardenfell....

ROFL!! Alaric, in case I've forgotten to mention it prior.... I do believe I <3 you.

One of the Dunmer says that, sarcastically. The Altmer in the city seem to disprove that as any kind of rule.

Niranye says she only arrived from Summerset Isle recently.

Well, read a little bit more. There is enough in this thread, if not the dozens of others, to show you've picked up a surface impression and there are other angles to consider.

Thanks, but we covered that and moved on.

Marry me! My battlemage Nord is tired of eating giant's toes and slaying dragons all by himself. He also has many many mansions and housecarls--none of whom are worthy. So he's still single. Too bad we can't import player avvies into our game---wait hang on---that would be another game by a company called EA.....

>.>

<.<

I would just like to point out, once again.... that one should never believe everything one reads in a book or papers picked up somewhere - even if that somewhere is a place of "authority".

[In other words, most everything you read about any given figure of importance in this game is half-truths, if not outright lies. Why on earth would you believe something you pick up randomly?]

This is true with the exception of one small detail--The Bear of Markarth was written by an Imperial. The victor has been known to re-write history since the dawn of man. Caveat Emptor!

edit: Serethil beat me to it. nvm.

They don't want to have to pick up and leave. Skyrim's been their home, and Ulfric has made it worse. Don't bother trying to justify it. Whatever the Dunmer did, both they and the Argonians are mistreated at Ulfric's Nord-centered policies.

He wasn't being sarcastic, he was speaking his mind. And the Altmer, for whatever reason, aren't actually forced to live in certain parts of the city, probably because there's so few living within the castle walls, whereas Windhelm's Dunmer population are refugees and the descendents of refugees. And it certainly doesn't contradict what the Dunmer say, because they never talked about Altmer.

But it's okay to glorify Ulfric and dismiss anything negative about him as propaganda? Even Jarl Law-Giver, who supports him, thinks he's self-serving. The same goes for Jarl Balgruuf, who was initially neutral until Ulfric's aggression prompted him to side with the Imperials.

I'm not saying that the Empire isn't also deeply flawed. They've done questionable things in the past and are a shadow of their former selves. But I feel that Ulfric's rebellion relies far too much on speculative "ifs" and excessive, selective optimism for it to work out better than an Empire-controlled Skyrim.

Except Ulfric's brutality within are actually confirmed by a Forsworn in Cidna Mine. Really, I've heard good things about Ulfric and bad things about Ulfric, but I've never heard or read of anything that contradicts or draws into question the atrocities he committed in The Reach.

My point was.... I DO NOT believe anything I read or hear about anyone - Ulfric OR the Empire. I posted that BECAUSE everyone seems to think Ulfric is a greatly misunderstood redeemer of some sort. I don't. I dislike Ulfric extremely, he's nothing but a user who has only his own best interests at heart. I refuse to pick a side in their petty little civil war.... though I really have no ill will toward those who were simply following orders when "I" was caught up in an ambush and sent off to the headsman with the rest of the traitors.

Now... the Thalmor. I believe everything bad about them, and nothing good. And I kill them wholesale on every toon I play.

[Oh. BTW.... I don't believe the Forsworn either.]

Someone mentions that Ulfric and Balgruuf have a "history" that makes them mistrust each other. Makes you wonder what that is.

Nuke the Thalmor Embassy with a master level destruction spell,cut Ulfric's head off,'shout' Tullius into the sea,and take over Skyrim....like a boss.

If all else fails,become a monk and let the dragons sort things out. >.>

Thank you.

And Happy New Year!!

The actual Stormcloaks aren't that star-struck. At one point Ralof says "I don't like everything I hear about Ulfric, but he's right about this war."

Well... no army's soldiers always believe everything they're out there fighting for. Most soldiers (in a civil war or otherwise) are there for reasons they can't mostly begin to articulate. And they just follow orders once they're there.

I actually liked Ralof...Epically his sister Ummm Nvm.....However I liked hadaver More....

Yah That what I thought! We got !@#$ing Gods in a poltical game of dice, Aliens coming at all sides, Fricken space ships traveling threw hell(Or the warp). Its ENDLESS Complexity

Yeah, why didn't black people just leave the South and other States with racist policies during the Civil Rights Movement?

Come on, read a little history. This is an absurd criticism of the Dunmer.


Oh right, because passive resistance has been invented here...oh wait, it hasn't. No one has EVER thought of doing that, so it is no wonder why it hasn't been done.

And that's just Warhammer 40K, where your generic good guys are racist bigots that make Hitler and the Thalmor look like playground bullies...the Horus Heresy itself contains enough lore, depth and background info to make an entire series in and of itself, and let's not even start on all the other events.

On the other side, you have Warhammer itself, which is an equally Grimdark, black fantasy universe where your life expectancy as a soldier is about fifteen minutes...when you're in the rear line.

Both Warhammer and Warhammer 40K came out at least a decade before TES Arena. Granted, TES is complex, but Warhammer and Warhammer 40K are twice as immense and twice more as complex.