http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Bear_of_Markarth dates the duration of Forsworn rule from 4E 174 to 4E 176. This means the Forsworn siezed power during the Great War, while the Legions were occupied with other matters, and Ulfric drove them out after the Great War ended. It also states that yes, the Empire was going to formally recognize Madanach's kingdom. Yes, it's a biased book, but that doesn't mean that the facts contained within aren't sound.

I see no sources saying the Empire was in on it. Only sources saying the Thalmor were in on it. Until there's evidence that they were in on it, it's more likely that they weren't, that they were trying to make peace with the Forsworn-controlled Reach.

Again, regardless of whether the empire knew what was going on- they did not remove Igmund from jarlship or order Ulfric released, so they obviously didn't object much. They're certainly not going to telegraph that they were involved in the very propaganda they're writing to cover their behinds with the Thalmor (by this I mean Bear of Markarth).

And all the stuff glorifying Ulfric isn't propoganda?

The way I see it, the Empire is flawed and has made many bad decision in the past, but I feel it's better to have a Skyrim united with the Empire than it is as an independent state ruled by an easily manipulated megalomaniac.

Considering how small the glorious "empire" has become by the year 200 of the 4th era, I am quite sure that its sad remains will have been assimilated by the Aldmeri Dominion by the time of TES VI, no matter if we chose to support the Stormcloaks or the Empire.

I will end up supporting no one and killing anyone unworthy of the crown and trying to take it.

Stormcloaks are racists ... enough reason for me not to support them at all.
Empire tried to kill me, an innocent man... enough reason.

So i guess i will have to kill both the current "king" and the leader of the Stormcloaks.

And if anyone tries to force me into doing something i don't want to do, or blackmail me, they end up
just like Astrid when she tried to blackmail me.... headless.

oh man such a long discussion. i just say one thing to this: i was able to do the stormcloaks TILL i came to conquering whiterun. after this i deleted the char.


joining the stormcloaks is wrong and brings nothing, but death to skyrim.


the empire is NOT against talos. the THALMOR are against talos.

so what is smarter? starting a civil war, because you have to live a few months without your lovely talos or everyone works together and destroys the thalmor, which breaks their contract = free talos.

soo... why should someone join the stormcloaks? because he's playing a stupid "milkdrinkers!" screaming nord that is against all kind of magic. <- which btw. again means they get destroyed, because the thalmor got strong magic.

what's the rule of the day?

the best place to change a system is from within the system. my Imperial is following the stormcloak quest chain because my boyfriend and I both finally decided to see what happens on the other side and have stayed Imperial for all the typical reasons including a belief that the Empire protects Skyrim from AD and outside threats etc... well... it plays out with some difficulties for a human girl in the US and many fewer problems for a Nord or Argonian or Breton girl in Skyrim.

We've got a tendency as players to apply our personal reactions to situations that are really nothing to do with our real life situations. On another world, in a place far far away from us technologically politically financially and religiously there are some people who are very like us in some key ways and are otherwise very very different from us... that's where the story should start.

Yes, the Stormcloaks are, by nature of being NORD, supersticious and biggoted and hard in their punishments. There is a very all or none attitude adopted by the Nords of Skyrim as a result of a very hard climate, hard lives and holy crap, Dragons every so often. They're a little backwards and well, it's not like the Empire has paid overly close attention until someone at the AD told them that Skyrim was politically important as a geographical location and that the uprising might be potentially problematic to the AD's plans and aspirations for life the universe and everything. No one but Ulfric and a few of the NPC's in Skyrim have actually asked what might be best for Skyrim.

Both sides torture, kill, pillage and loot to extreme. Both sides have dogma and crap to say about the other side that is based less in fact than in popular rumormill of the day. Welcome to war. You can give examples on both sides for as long as you like and the real truth is that Ulfric and his boys are backwards and rough and uncivilized and have decided that they're in this thing to win it or die trying and have the afterlife they were promised. The Imperial's are going to secure peace in Skyrim at any cost, and remember... they're happy to keep recruiting from Skyrim and cost us in our own civil war and have not been bringing shipload after shipload of their own men into the fray, it's more cost effective that way and the inhabitants of Skyrim are ultimately collateral damage anyway.

The first step towards a totally free and independent Skyrim is to do it Ulfric's way or to do it with the Empire and then not so nicely turn on them over the table and tell them to go home and let us get back to doing things our way. Since the game gives us the choice to do it Ulfric's way or pretty much go back to letting the Empire do it for us and not really with us as the primary concern... GO STORMCLOAKS! You are the first step towards a Skyrim independent of outside control!

It's obvious the devs wanted either side to seem good or bad depending on how you look at it. No good side and bad side for good and evil characters.

To me, it was obvious what kind of choice you had to make:

Imperials:

Subject to the Thalmors whims, they are trying to ensure the Empire doesn't fall completely under enemy rule. They're generally understanding but very resistant to opposing ideas. A good deal of them have become complacent with the Thalmor out of greed. They are ineffectual in dealing with the Thalmor in the long term. They have no plans to return the Empire, but rather are content to do nothing at all.

Stormcloaks:

Incredibly emotional and eager to go to war with every non-Nord in Skyrim, and even other Nords. They are reactionary. They don't think about how they'll handle the Thalmor if they win the civil war; they have a "we'll do something" attitude. They're led by bloodthirsty racist [censored]s who are terrified by the world around them, basically. They're the cliche rebels of any empire, who have no long term plans, have a poor understanding of why things are happening and if left to rule themselves would create twice as many problems.

So, you're essentially left to choose between cowards or fools. The Imperials won't ever do anything to resolve any problems, and the Stormcloaks will ultimately cause more problems while having no means to a solution.

Probably the best solution would be for the Empire to heavily invest in the rebels behind the scenes, and for the rebels to slowly muster their strength so that when the Empire leads an official attack on the Thalmor, all Nords are united and prepared. The only reason there's a civil war is because Ulfred refuses to listen to reason and because the Imperial leaders refuse to do the same.

You're trying to blame the Markarth Incident on Ulfric alone, and excuse Igmund and other imperial Nords from complicity, and that just doesn't fly. The deal was engineered by both of them.

Point being? The deal was engineered by the Empire and Ulfric. Ulfric agreed to take Markarth, and as a high-ranking officer of the Legion he should have had full knowledge that if the Thalmor got wind of what he intended to do, the Empire would have no choice but to arrest him to prevent a catastrophic war. Saying that "Ulfric and the Empire agreed upon this deal" doesn't change a thing - that was already acknowledged in the point I made, and doesn't address the crux of that point, which is what Stormcloak did afterward.

The books about the Reachmen have very much a "noble savages" feel to them. They strike me as pretty naive, even patronizing, and I believe are the product of one imperial scholar. He's got his perspective, but there are others.

Agreed; there are no excuses for hedge magic. But the point I made about the legitimization of the Forsworn is not a patronizing view of their hedge culture; it was a reference to Imperial policy at the time, a fact that could not be and was not influenced by the author's perspective.

The Stormcloaks want Nords to rule themselves without imperial interference- that equates to "screw other races"? Only if you're going from an assumption that Stormcloaks are racist. Then it becomes a circular argument.

My assumption that the Stormcloaks are racist is based on their treatment of other races, i.e. the whole "true sons of Skyrim" line that they're carrying. The line that Ulfric took into the Markarth incident, the line that made him rebel when, as an officer of the Legion, he should have had full knowledge of what would need to be done should the Thalmor find out about Talos worship in retaken Markarth. And, more importantly, the line that influenced Ulfric's policies, something that I'll be discussing in detail further below.

That the imperials are just as ethnocentric as the Nords, and the fact that Cyrodiil and her interests always predominate, and the imperials are considered a better class of citizen than others, is just de rigeur in Tamriel.

As far as I’ve seen in Skyrim, the Empire has never tried to elevate Cyrodiil’s interests above that of Skyrim’s, or elevate the status of the Imperials as compared to the Nords. All they’re trying to do is keep the Thalmor from wrecking havoc and bloody murder across Skyrim. While they certainly aren’t faultless, they do not give special privileges to Imperials in the same way the Ulfric’s policies favour that Nords.

They weren't ever let in to begin with, as I understand it. Are you forgetting that most cities want to bar your entrance at first, too? Ulfric is conducting a war. If he takes policies to prevent some social problems, or simply neglects those, then the most he can be accused of is that- neglect. Regardless, you're willing to make excuses for the imperials about the Khajiit, but apparently everything Ulfric does is bad just because Ulfric does it. We're obviously going to get nowhere.

Most cities aren’t averse to your entry – only a couple. And even then, you’re only questioned on your intent to enter the city, not outrightly turned away.

Even if the Argonians were never let in in the first place, neglect is not the mark of a proper leader. Leaving pressing domestic issues to suffer, and allowing the continual tyranny of the majority, is the mark of a poor one. Leaders always have to juggle multiple important issues; if Ulfric had won the war, he’d still have to consolidate power, wipe out pockets of Imperial resistance, and rebuild the torn nation, which in many ways is just as hard if not harder than the actual war itself.

If Ulfric is either unable or unwilling to deal with social problems at this stage, he won’t deal with them at any stage.

Furthermore, on the issue of the Khajiit, it’s not an excuse – it’s a political norm. Given that skooma, sleeping tree sap and moon sugar are classified as illicit narcotics, any traders that intend to sell these would be breaking the law.

The basic social contract that most governments operate upon grants certain citizenship rights – i.e. the right of staying within a country, the right to privacy, the right to freedom of movement, etc etc – in exchange for citizens following the laws of that government. The moment those laws are broken, the government has the right to waive certain rights since that social contract has been broken.

When the Khajiit deal blatantly in narcotics, they’re not following the laws of the Holds. They could, of course, drop it completely, but would prefer to continue their nomadic lifestyle.

The Argonians at, say, Windhelm, on the other hand (such as Scouts-Many-Marshes) are just there to earn an honest living. Still, Ulfric at best neglects them and at worst would rather not have a bunch of lizards within his city walls, because, you know, lizards aren’t the true sons of Skyrim.

Compare this to the Empire which allows the Argonians into Windhelm at the conclusion of the Civil War, even as it undergoes the process of nation-building which, as I’ve mentioned before, is just as tough.

I repeat- they say that if they had known Ulfric was going to challenge Torygg,they would never have let him in. Ulfric had a right under the old Nord law to challenge the king. To his credit, Torygg recognized this. The rest of his court and the people who execute the guy who let him out of the gate- not so much. The fact that they're Nords is really irrelevant, since they're milk-drinking imperial lackeys and that is Ulfric's point.

You’re not getting my point here.

Tradition can be upheld and can be considered honourable if a playing field is level – there is honour in taking down a strong king which proves you even stronger. However, when you pick fights with a relatively young boy, how is that considered worthy of honour and high praise?

By principle, the custom is just. In practice, it wasn’t, because Ulfric clearly saw that his opponent was not his equal and yet used deceit to take him down. Ulfric’s actions weren’t engineered towards honour, they were engineered towards trying to gain power as securely as possible. If honour had been his watchword, he would have made his intentions clear from the start, instead of cloaking them in artifice and cutting down someone who was clearly inferior in combat.

Torygg accepted the challenge because he had no choice – by then, it was too late to stop Stormcloak, and he decided to face his inevitable doom with proper Nord honour. If he had rejected, and somehow won, then Ulfric’s supporters would not have recognised his legitimacy since he had rejected the “old ways”, conniving though Ulfric might have been. If he had rejected, and still lost, then he would die in a distasteful fashion.

Ulfric’s point that they’re milk-drinking Imperial lackeys is terribly short-sighted. Look at things in the big picture – just how much of Nord culture has been threatened by the Empire? Only Talos worship is somewhat-outlawed, and by that I mean the supposed blanket ban has many gaps through which Talos worship slips through. This is a point I’ve constantly raised again and again, but never have you addressed that. No other part of Nord life is threatened; Nords still wear Nord clothes, celebrate other Nord festivals, and live Nord lives.

And whilst many Nords within the Empire resent that ban on Talos worship, to outrightly overthrow that decree would be to break the White-Gold Concordat and invite the wrath of the Thalmor.

The supposed “milk-drinkers” are basically people who understand that in times of outside oppression and civil war, some concessions have to be made. If the Empire wins, Skyrim can be consolidated with Cyrodiil and Hammerfell, and the Thalmor can be opposed with a proper, united force.

If Ulfric charges in and wins Skyrim for its true sons, then he goes to war not only against the Thalmor, but also has to patrol his borders and makes sure the Empire doesn’t try to regain a foothold in Skyrim. Three-way war. Once again, this is a vital point to my argument that you haven’t really addressed.

I, myself am torn between the Stormcloaks and the Empire..both sides have positives and negatives.
On my first playthrough I joined the Stormcloaks because being a Nord it seemed right to fight for my country and its' people. I believe their goals are noble and their cause is just, but being led by Ulfric Stormcloak who is nothing but a self-serving, egotistical glory hunter who just wants power for himself puts a big disadvantage to my wanting to join the Stormcloaks on my second playthrough. Also, as Ulfric was captured by the Thalmor they may have put into his head that rebellion is a good idea...even though he is now uncooperative with them, and they don't want a Stormcloak victory the rebellion alone is enough to weaken the Empire and buy time for a possible Aldmeri attack.

The Empire has definitely diminished over the years; due to the Septim bloodline dying out, the Great War, and the White Gold Concordat but that doesn't mean the Empire agree with the Thalmor and are their puppets. Titus Mede made a mistake with the treaty, but it's too late to worry about that when the legion are caught up in the Civil War in Skyrim. Once the war is over the winning side will have to face the Aldmeri Dominion....possible DLC?

All of this discounts one major influencing factor as another person stated , you. After that everything else is an opinion based on perspective. You can approach the game by reading every single book available in the game and being a walking TES library of knowledge , or you can just play the game going by your perspective. Either side has it's good and bad , but that changes with you involved in it , hopefully at some point , or beth will never have another game installed on anything I own because this is all obviously a cliffhanger and a rather urgent one at that. Racism at it's base is a primitive survival tool , it's a double-edged sword but it has served countless numbers of races in surviving yet is far from being ideal , yet it is a fact and exists. The fact the game includes this impresses me instead of the devs trying to be all politically correct and bow down to pressure and try to offer a war-torn world that somehow exists without racism. Racism from the perspective that it is a tool is what the entire situation we're discussing even comes from. If we all lived a fairy-tale disney-esque life in this world with love peace and acceptance from everyone there would be no impending issues and wars.

The Nords really don't care for anybody that don't fend for themselves , life simply is too brutal and hard to babysit anybody. How long have the Dunmer lived in Windhelm? And the war isn't their fight? Get out from behind these walls and chance your fate with the roving bands of bandits , thalmor ,etc. You impose a modern perspective of your personal life experiences on this situation. Just because you personally lack the skills to build a house and pay others to do it for you , this isn't a time period where you picked up a phonebook and called a contractor to do it for you for a price. Here your roof leaks you either fix it yourself , find somebody to pay/trade with who can , or move everything you don't want getting wet. They lived in the protection of those walls for many years and still whine about it's condition while doing nothing or even barely assisting the people that live there too. Any circumstance I'm aware of they'd be gone. But no , they're tolerated and you get treated to their certain brand of wellfare resentment. Nobody is stopping them rom improving their living areas , they'd just rather [censored] than just go and do it. last I checked Windhelm was mostly made of stone , and I've spent many hours climbing alot of stone right outside that town. It's there , and doesn't cost anything but hard work so the "well they're poor" argument doesn't really apply here.

If you like the imperial way of being sly and and working behind the scenes etc. then by all means play it that way. They're gonna have you the main character as their hero so everything will eventually boil down to you. Bravery in this time period really isn't a word I'd use to describe the imperial leadership. But that doesn't mean the people in general aren't brave or agree with the leaders. Same with the Stormcloaks , except here you're postulating even more because the Moot hasn't even been convened yet. Then there's others who have stated ancient Nord law allowing for the challenging of the king , hmmmmm. Well , your character is Thane of every province by that time and is generally held in as much or higher regard as Ulffric so the possibility of you challenging him isn't exactly excluded. And he himself must wait for the Moot to be called although I found it a little off-putting that he assumes it will be him , but from his eyes he ssees no other as worthy. He doesn't count on you challenging him for that right. In the end the empire is not doing itself ANY favors allowing the thalmor to wander freely through their realms arresting and mistreating imperial subjects , at the least they're inviting dissent among their own people if they find out about how rampant it actually is , at worst your most dangerous enemy is just waltzing around doing whatever it wants in front of everybody. Imagine if you looked out your window and saw your neighbor being dragged down the street by uniformed chinese army people. That would scare the everliving hell out of you and certainly couldn't be allowed to continue.

As far as seeing the empire's choices in this game the pragmatic and smart way to do things, there's a fine line between smart/pragmatic and stupid/suicidal in this case. Even my imperial character is absolutely horrified at the thalmor squads roaming around arresting people they have no jurisdiction over , I feel like these people pay their taxes to their townships , live as decent residents and we betray them to some of the most vicious people in the game. They die on sight no matter what I'm playing. The Thalmor transcend mere racism and make the very best antagonist in this game , and it seems people just love to think of themselves as the higher-up really important guy and never consider the common folk who keep all this stuff running.

I've only had Skyrim for a couple weeks but it looks like the only one threatened by the Thalmor at the time of the White-Gold Concordat was the Emperor.

This is why felt great. Now to find a way to ascend to the throne...

It's been almost thirty years since the Concordat was signed.

Those who want to wait around for the empire to find its balls and fight the Thalmor instead of following them around at the heels... good luck with that.

best post of the thread as it has zero speculation. Also the most likely conclusion of where TES VI universe is headed.

Not really. The Aldmeri gained zero net territory in the Great War, and technically lost. And even if Skyrim does kick out the Empire, they, and hammerfell, are still going to work together as fellow kinsmen against the Thalmor, should they invade.

Beyond the racism , Stormcloacks are anti-Magic , they want to ban it in Skyrim , make outlaws of mages ..

How do they think they are going to fight the Thalmor without magic , maybe Ulfric has an answer , but clearly , this is a bad thing to burn magic books and ban what is an important knowledge , they are like Nord Talibans IMHO

What? Where do people come up with this stuff? All the jarls have court mages, including Ulfric. They are suspicious of the college for obvious reasons.

It's amazing the **** people will come up with out of thin air.

Chill out man ...

I'm pretty sure i heard/read in game that Ulfric and the Stormcloacks intend to purge magic users and outlaw Magic in Skyrim once he wins the war , i don't invent it .

However it's true that the Jarls have Mage advisors , but it's not incompatible with outlawing something , North Korean dictator had access to free internet and luxuries , unlike most of his people who did not have access to foreign info and comfort , well perhaps a bad example , but still , i'm not lying

I find it amazing how some people's standards of evidence so often boil down to "if it makes Ulfric look good, it's obviously in; if it makes Ulfric look bad, it's obviously propaganda & lies".
(mind you, same goes for the other side)
Basically I don't think arguing over this nets any answers and you people have already made up your mind and are then sorting the facts to fit your conclusions.

It's up to Bethesda to decide the outcome anyway. *shrugs*

Eventually rebellion against the Thalmor and its supporters has to happen.

Unfortunately the Stormcloaks are doing it all wrong. They are a racist organization that makes enemies out of potential allies, ruining the chance of a unified resistance. They've managed to alienate half of their own people and the vast majority of non-Nords not because it was necessary, but because they're stupid and backwards thinking.

Btw, "Skyrim for the Nords" is a horrible motto that alienates all the non-nords that live in or were born in Skyrim. Yes, Skyrim is the origin of the Nord people, but that doesn't mean all other races who are CITIZENS of Skyrim should be second-class citizens. Racist bastards.

+1

Stormcloak symphatizers' narrow-minded thinking is what really is going to destroy Skyrim, not the Empire.

Just want to point out 2 provinces does not an empire make.(+ a half province if you count Morrowind)

And Why would the Cyrodils after taking it in the shorts on every other province now decide to go down swinging in Skyrim.

If you can show the in-game evidence for it, I'm all ears.

Keeping in mind that people say a lot of things about Ulfric that may or may not be true.

This pretty much. I liked how Bethesda did not make it black and white. The Stormcloaks are a emotion based revolution. Their cause is meant to tug on your heart strings and stir up some feelings in you. The Imperial side is the logic based one. Its not perfect, and you will have to do some things you might not want to do but in the end when everything has been added up you have the best result.