To put things into perspective:

If you side with the Imperials, Jarl Laila Law-Giver (who has the best last name in the game) gets kicked out from Riften, replaced by the incredibly corrupt Maven Black-Briar

If you side with the Stormcloaks, Jarl Igmund will be kicked out from Markarth, and Thonar Silver-Blood, who are practically running the town (and has been exploiting the Forsworn for quite some time), takes the throne. Although the Thalmor got kicked out as a side bonus

So, each side already has negative sides

However, seeing that the... "Empire" is already nothing but Cyrodiil, High Rock and Skyrim, I'd say the Empire is taking a bad turn, and the best thing to do is to secede from the Empire. True, the "Empire" needs Skyrim warriors now more than ever, but seeing the bad moves taken by the Empire in the past, I truly doubt that even if Ulfric have never rebelled to begin with, the "Empire" will have the balls to fight the Dominion

The Empire didn't even try save Valenwood. It was the first province to be swayed/captured by the Thalmor, and at that point, the "Aldmeri Dominion" was still just that: Aldmeri Dominion, not Aldmeri and Bosmeri Dominion. The Empire still had High Rock (and Orsinium), Hammerfell, Skyrim, Cyrodiil, Elsweyr, Black Marsh, and what's left of Morrowind. Fighting off the Dominion should still be relatively easy

Yet, the Empire let things take turn into the worse: first Valenwood, then Elsweyr, and Black Marsh, one after another. The fact that the Aldmeri Dominion couldn't win the Great War alone should be miraculous enough.

After that they ban their own God, the God that they have worshiped for more than an era, virtually changing the "draw" situation into "losing", and Hammerfell seceded

The Empire is nothing but a remnant of the past. Seeing as Thalmor agents can operate freely within the Empire, there is nothing much that the Empire can do against them. The Empire signed a deal while the enemy had virtually nothing left in Cyrodiil, that alone had left a bad impression to me

We could really do with a new Numidium to stomp the Aldmeri Dominion into the ground

Ultimately I would say that both sides will end up in the same place, though I really feel the Stormcloaks would benefit from Ulfric being deposed and having someone decent lead them.

The Stormcloaks strike me as nothing but racists, like another poster I play Khajiit mostly and you run into a lot of racism from the Stormcloaks and their allies.
I find them a poor choice because of this hate, besides, the comments are right, the Thalmor want the rebellion to go on and would love nothing more then to see Ulfric win. The Stormcloaks have no hope fighting alone, and they do more to cause problems for the Nords of Skyrim then to help.

Also note that the comments about Ulfric behing hypocritical are true, read the book on Markath, he slaughtered innocents simply because they would not fight. In the end he is a traitor and I hold NO mercy for traitors.

That's a pretty good anolysis.

Wrong, an Ulfric victory will mean less territory for Thalmor. The last thing Ulfric wants to see is a Thalmor, with Sovngarde as the second, perhaps

Also, the Empire killed Illia Snow-Shod because she's a healer. Think about that for a second

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Maven always ruled Riften? She pretty much always had Laila in her pocket, as evidenced by some dialogue between the two.

For the most part, I side with the empire.

I hate the thalmor(my bosmer has a personal beef with them), and kill them every time I see them.This is the major beef I have with my side. Im "helping" the thalmor, by capturing holds, and spreading thier influence further east in skyrim(they dont appear in the stormcloak holds untill they have fallen to imperial hands). While one could argue that you are helping the thalmor by helping the stormcloaks, thats all hypothetical, and realy depends on either a dlc, or a new game to confirm it. You actualy see that you are helping the thalmor when you side with the imperials.

Heres a few things I dont understand. Whats with the whole toryyg thing? It doesnt matter if Ulfric was a better fighter/ had the power of the voice, those are his advantages to have. What did toryyg have? yeah.. nothing. That doesnt change the fact that they agreed to duel.It was ulfric;s right to challenge him if toryyg wasnt doing what was best for the country, reguardless of his stregnth.

Also, the whole "dummer" thing... Let me put it this way. A homeless man (the dummer) walks up to your home. Its cold,raining, and he has no food, or any where to stay. Now, at the moment, your town(skyrim, or windhelm) is going through intense poverty, crime, and other problems(the war). You ask him to help you out with you yard(umm, the war again), and he can stay, but he refuses to help you. With every thing thats happening, you are weary, and distrustful of the man, he could have any thing planed, he could be there to harm you, especialy since he wont help you in any way(lol, he could be an imperial spy like the owner of the dummer bar). You dont want to put him out, but you dont want him there either. You tell him he can sleep in the garage for a while, but you make sure to let him know you dont like it. He accepts. Now, this man, with no money, no food, and no place to go, that you have been nice enough to let into your property while all of those bad things are happening in your town, actualy has the audacity to complain that the garage is not nice enough, and demands more from you?

Thats what the dummer are like IMO. If they want more, they can leave. If they dont have the means to aquire more, they damn well better be happy with what they got, because I doubt the other yarls would show bums the lvl of "kindness" that they somehow feel entitled to.

As far as the scene upon entering windhelm, do those two men represent the feelings of an entire faction? Now, Im not saying the stoemcloaks are;nt racist,but I dont think those two drunks should be used for people to say da stormklokes ahr RaCistss!!

Those are the only points I defend ulfric on. I support what the stormcloaks want, but they are going about it the wrong way, and I just dont trust ulfric because of his past.

Both sides svck, but I feel(again, my opinion, not saying stormcloak supporters are wrong) the empire svcks less, as it has a better longterm plan. This empire is going to get a lot better now that its cowerdly, imposter of a leader has met his end. Hopefuly some one(me) of dragonblood will take his place.

Maven runs Riften, but from the backstage. Laila is simply in a blissful... uninformed state. The people around her convinced her that nothing wrong is going on, but in reality everything is wrong

If anything, she's truly thinking about Riften

The Empire isn't perfect, but Ulfric is a lot worse. He's a monstrous racist that has torn Skyrim in twain. This wasn' necessary. There are far, far better ways to run a rebellion. All Ulfric has done is weaken and divide the cause of liberation.


Again, a rebellion against the Thalmor is a good thing. Ulfric has managed to turn a good idea into something awful. The Stormcloaks don't serve anyone's longterm interests.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Katariah

And that is just the post of emperor. The Empire has had non imperial leaders many times before. Mostly Nords, but also two Tsaesci, and an Altmer.

The first thing the people quote about Ulfric is "racist", but not even in Solitude the Khajiiti traders can get inside the city. I'm confused, really

The Empire openly supports the Thalmor (more specifically, the Empire is Thalmor's slave). Currently, if you're fighting Thalmor, you're fighting the Empire too, so there's that

I just hate Maven Black-Briar. Laila Law-Giver is honorable. Emperor Mede II is a weakling and has to go. The Empire has fallen into a sorry state of affairs. I don't want to see Whiterun change either. The real fact of the matter is that the only winner in the civil war is the Aldmeri Dominion. I would just as soon see a way to challenge Ulfric to a duel before choosing sides, and let the Dragonborn reunite the Jarls of Skyrim.

I guess you don't pay attention to the game. There's a general problem the people have with the Khajit. That's unfortunate. Ulfric has a. General problem with any non-nord living in Skyrim. That's a lot worse. I don't see how you can possibly ignore that.

Again, rebellion against the Thalmor is FINE. Ulfric's way isn't. He needlessly makes enemies out of potential allies. It isn't like anyone is happy wiith the Thalmor. Ulfric takes what could have been general goodwill or even support and turned it into hate and civil war.

It's the racism, lack of proper focus on the Thalmor, thinking Skyrim can resist the Thalmor alone, and numerous other hrrible traits that make the Stormcloaks a horrible option.

Play as an Imperial and go into Riften Bee and Barb.

The old man, one of the "Stormcloak supports" bad mouths you just because your an Imperial.

If you play as a Nord he welcomes you with open arms.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak

So, a "just one race" racism is better than a "some more races" racism? I see how you say that, but racism is still racism


The Empire is not happy with the Thalmor, but have done nothing in their power about it

Had Ulfric not rebelled, I don't think anyone will actually do anything. The Empire is simply too afraid at the Thalmor to do anything officially

Also, the Empire can simply secede Skyrim and make it their ally, thus not violating anything within the Concordant, just like what it did with Morrowind (Morrowind was autonomy, so can Skyrim)

The Thalmor's plan is to eliminate men altogether. If the Empire wins, it simply means the Empire have more men to work with. The problem is WILL the Empire?

The rebels have explicitly stated they don't want Thalmor. Currently, the Thalmor is enslaving the Empire like a boss, bad mouthing the lesser men and the Empire in general in every possible occasion. And borrowing Heimskr's words:
"And what did the Empire do? NOTHING! Nay, worse than nothing!"

They didn't, they couldn't, they can't. While I can't say that they won't, there's a possibility that they couldn't in the future, even if Ulfric never rebelled to begin with

Let me rephrase. The Thalmor say that an Imperial victory will harm their position in Skyrim. Both Thalmor and Legion hint that there is going to be another war between the Dominion and Empire in the near future. The Thalmor don't control the Empire, they only have authority to hunt Talos worshipers. And even then they're doing a remarkably ineffectual job at it, whenever it wouldn't stir tensions up.

A point on the Khajit.
They are allied with the Thalmor.Not letting them inside to scout your defenses seems like a smart idea.But claiming racism is easier than thinking.

A point on the empire winning.
The Redguards are probably in no mood to hug it out with the Empire right now.They certainly have respect for the legions I am sure but the Legions bosses bailed on them because they thought they could not win.We all know how that turned out.

There are also Aldmers like Nurelion who resides in the Stromcloak's capital. Not allowing an Aldmer within your city to prevent them from cooperating with their homeland sounds like a good idea, but thinking is harder than pointing out mistakes

Yes, obviously. The same way murdering ten people is worse than the murder of one. Also most Nords just need to be educated about the Khajit. Stormcloaks in general need to be convinced their Nord-superioity philosphy is wrong. The latter is harder than the former.

Nice to see you ignore all the wrongs of Ulfric though.

Btw, if you had a friend suffering abuse, would you hate them because they didn't stop it? That's the philosophy of theStormcloaks regarding the Empire. Break all ties rather than help and join with longterm allies.

About Thongvar and Maven:

If you listen to Thongvar, he actually wants to rid the Reach of Forsworn and if you listen to banter after Stormcloaks win the war, you see he is constantly petitioning Ulfric to send more troops to eliminate Forsworn so he is doing more for the Reach than Maven would ever do. While I hate the Silver-Bloods with a passion, you have to admit that having an independent Skyrim would mean more silver for Skyrim and thus more weapons and wealth.

And so, you'll forgive one murder because "*shrug* it could've been worse"

You've been pointing out his bad side, so I point out the good side. Is there anything wrong in that? You, too, ignore the wrong points of the Empire

They didn't simply not try to stop it, they outright chose to begin it. Like I said: Valenwood, Elsweyr, Black Marsh, Talos, Hammerfell. One thing leads to another. The one problem with your example is the fact that your "abused friend" persona of Empire is wrong: Empire's persona is "an abused friend who hates his abuser but willingly cooperates with the said abuser and lets the said abuser kill his silent supporters"

Shes the hardworking merchant that badmouths the Dumner correct?It is easier to keep tabs on a 7 foot tall golden hued woman than 3 or 4 Khajit.
Actually I did find it odd that there were Altmer in the Stormcloaks capital.

I think it may be due to the fact that they've been there a while and have proved their worth whereas the Khajiit as master sneakers and can be a bit more difficult to spot. How else can a Khajiit assassin enter Riften to kill you

Nurelion is a "He", and all he cared about is the legendary White Phial. Seeing that an Aldmer can get a nice place while Dunmers can't, I fail to see how it's entirely the Jarl's fault that they're stuck in there

Vvardenfell erupted before Ulfric is a Jarl, which means they've been there all along. While it's true that Ulfric chose not to send any troop for them, the proof of concept exists in that they could've gotten a nicer place should they try and prove themselves