But the thing is, it's NOT less choice.

Because you couldn't choose to do bleeding damage with ANY weapon in previous games. So the fact that you can specialize in different weapons, and get different types of damage through it actually -IS- more meaningful choice than we had before. Daggers never had any type of specialty to them before, and now, they do! That's more choice, that's more -meaningful- choice.

I'm not going to argue whether or not certain perk placements make sense or not. All I'm going to say is, a perk being in a logical place or not is not a lack of customization or depth, it's a subjective preference on how that depth is implemented.

The fact is, every effect that came from Attributes (except Speed, which -has- been removed for better or worse) is in the game as either 1.) perks or 2.) the remaining Attributes of Health, Magicka, and Stamima.

I don't think that Attributes allowed for greater customization than perks in the least bit. I am not inherently against Attributes, I did not take issue with having Attributes in Morrowind or Oblivion, if they came back for Elder Scrolls VI I wouldn't be particularly pissed about it, and while there were obviously some "efficient" leveling methods (Oblivion being the worst offender), I didn't find Attributes overly deep, complex, nor confusing. I believe that perks are a better way of going about said customization, I believe it offers -more- than Attributes ever could. I didn't feel like Attributes ever added anything unique to my character, where I feel that perks do.

Speed is still in the game to an extent

Diffrent races/genders run at a slightly diffrent speed.

speed was merged with your character itself, much like Hand to hand is.

Encumbrance is now effected by Stamina.
Damage output (previously effected by Strength) is now effected by damage upgrade perks in the relevant skills.
Staggering (previously effected by Agility) is now effected by perks in the armor skills.
Magicka regen (previously effected by Willpower) is now effected by perks in Restoration.
Health, Magicka, and Stamina, previously effected by Endurance, Intelligence, and are now effected by putting points directly into them.

All of the effects of Attributes (save for Speed) are still in the game.

The (de)evolution of the TES reputation system:

Daggerfall: This is the introduction of a reputation system and arguable beginning of TES's nature as a full-fledged RPG series following a fun, but shallow, Arena. In this system, reputation means everything. Everything from different social classes, to regional law, to factions, and even political entities had a manner by which they judged the PC. Do something to help one group out and you risk ticking off another. Joinable factions had clear and defined privileges as well as rules and prerequisites. Your skill as a whatever is taken into account for initial hiring and promotion as was your reputation with that guild, which was based off of a myriad of factors consisting of job completion and failure history, work for outside guilds, and laziness (yes, laziness... slack off and do little for your faction and they remember; you have an obligation to assist with a minimal quota).

Your work for the social classes gained their favor and sometimes shifted other favor. Your preferences with political entities and other main quest factions and your ability to actually choose a side made a difference. The law recognized you, by region, for your standing (criminal past, indifferent existence, or sterling example of law-defender, etc.) and for most factions, better reputation means more trust, better jobs, and better rewards. An unseen web of reputation dictated everything the PC did beneath the surface. Daggerfall arguably has the most extensive video game reputation system ever. Unfortunately, lack of staff, underfunding, and lack of polish left it in an unfinished state, but they really were on to something there.

Morrowind: It retained the factional reputation and the risk of ticking one group off by helping another. Dispositions continued to be affected, but many layers of depth were removed including main quest sidings, social standing, and general law record. Faction rank remained pertinent.

Oblivion: Factional reputation is gone, but general reputation for deeds and goals did leave a mark on recognition and disposition, still. There was a slight religious thing going on with the divines and their willingness to heal you, but it was barely anything. Still, what you did left a mark of some kind. Faction rank remained pertinent.

Skyrim: There is no disposition and there is no reputation. You get a few, scarce, sometimes vague comments from the guards for certain exceptions. That's it.

It cannot be modifed ever except through console commands, though.

For all intents and purposes, Speed is gone. It's no longer a mechanic of the game, it's just a static GMST.

Speed is still in the game as I mentioned.


but the fact is diffrent races/genders are diffrent from each other in that regard giving each race/gender combonation more unqiueness insted of a generic everyone runs the same at 100 speed.

the removal of speed as an attribute actually make it more unqiue.

The aspect to which Speed still remains in the game is that a higher Stamina rating will allow you to sprint longer.

I realize that this is not the same thing as pure character speed, however, it is essentially the same end result of getting to a spot faster. And yes, it can be very vital in a fight, when you need to get away from an enemy to get better positioning, having more stamina to escape your enemy does come in handy. I've used it.

But I understand that it's not the same exact thing. As far as I'm concerned though, it's close enough.

Although, this is vague, short sighted, and the overall tone spews of bitterness and lack of imagination, I do agree to the overall point to how the game has interpreted reputation for you in previous iterations. But, with that, you then have to argue if "Reputation" in itself is a gameplay feature that ANY game, in this era, executes well. Its not important to gamers now. Game animations, graphics, and cinematics are enough to fill the void of narrative depth. If you dont agree, you and all of our wallets beg to differ. Focus on what it does have. It makes you happier.

The removal of spell creation disappointed me a fair bit, this coming from someone who normally always plays a warrior has to mean something.

They added more new features than stuff they removed, so if the trend continues we will get bigger and better games every time. I miss some features but whatever, nothing me and the other modders can't fix.

I agree. It seems that something always needs to be complained about so how about endless posts on how tons of stuff gets removed in each new installment? But what about the almost countless things that have also been added? Forget about that

Pray tell, what is deeper and far more complex? The 5 spells to previous title's limitless selection? The total removal of the backbone of the original game system and it's replacement with a rudimentary and poorly balanced system of nonsensical "perks"? Or maybe it's conversations becoming people launching into a tyrade about their job or their life story as you pass by?

Whats next?
Customers.

No way Im buying TES6 unless it has at least spellmaking and attributes.

Vague? How so? Must I list every single political faction, joinable faction, and social class within Daggerfall and write an essay on how they interconnect and overlap? I can do that, but I'm a bit busy, at the moment. It's not short-sighted in the least sense, it's the truth spanning back to 1996. 15+ years and a general description of the changes over that period of time is pretty thorough, I'd say. Yes, is there a problem with being bitter over developers who abandon the sought-after concepts of previous games within a given series? I'm not sure how I'm supposed to exhibit imagination in describing reality, but whatever.

I'm a gamer now, I like such RPG mechanics. Therefore, yes, at least one of the gamers now cares for it. I'll assume more do, as well, as some companies are still happy to oblige that desire. Fallout: New Vegas, for example, had a brilliant faction and reputation system that truly made up the base of a game and only enriched it as an RPG. Perhaps it's also a bit short-sighted on your part to claim that I cannot state a criticism or that if I do, it's invalid because "gamers now" don't care? That's also vague, wouldn't you say? I mean, who are "gamers now"? FPS gamers? Racing gamers? Puzzle game gamers? Perhaps they do not care if a gameworld in an RPG reacts to the player's existence and choices and perhaps some RPG fans don't either (not like the term "RPG" really means much, really... a bit too broad), but those that cared 10 years ago likely still care now.

Considering that enchanting is probably affecting the game similar to how spell-making did, I wouldn't be surprised if enchanting is limited further.

Bye bye then


Antiquated systems whose purpose has already been raplced with somethign else wont be ocmming back.

Talk about adding something to replace something removed. I think it is non sense that we need random quests in a game with plenty of very large dungeons to explore, 300+ or so is enough. Every time I have a quest in the same place with another one, it always seems to gltich or won't finish at all. I am not talking about just the random bounty type quests either. If people care to notice there are alot of the misc quests even from Jarls and others including some guilds that turn out randon places also. This is my 3rd main character and have seen this happen more then a few times...... In the end all I want to know, Whos bright idea was it to randomize everything!?!, seems to me it just makes things worse on the gameplay mechanics. I say if people are that bored with the replayability, then go play another game.

Stupid response.

It's only stupid if...............

ohh wait it isnt becuase its true. Bethesda wont be adding them back becuase thier purpose has already been replaced. hoping for it is foolish and stupid.



I'm old a cant deal with change so im gonna fruitless yell until Bethesda changes it back" to bad they wont.

Spelling however will never go out of style.

Meanwhile, why is that then?
Is it that people suddenly do not like engaging, deep and rewarding mechanics anymore?
Reading this board makes me think otherwise.

Silly arguments like that mean nothing, and do nothing, aside from showing that its hard, isnt it, to have an actual discussion.
You see, mindless praise is worthless.
What helps is when people point on, clear and concise, what could be better.
I am pointing out that I would like to play an RPG. Im pointing out that, for instance, a game like Morrowind had mechanics that were incredibly deep and engaging, compared to the hollow shell of Skyrim.
And that some people at least are looking to spend their money on a game like that, instead of a glorified hack and slash.
All you can come up with is: "Youre not allowed to have an opinion, go away."

And that is what grinds my gears.
Now over to Diane for the weather. Diane?

As has been stated countless times over the same functions serverd by attributed are still in the game

There is no loss of depth just a change in where it is.

I will have to agree with this.....Daggerfall was the game of all games when it was released, and had so much depth, and still is the largest size game world to date....with limitless combinations of play. Countless quests. Reputation, factions, guilds, intricate stories.

I have to back this up.....because this was very thorough. There is very little to gain with reputation besides .....accomplishments on steam?
haha. really. A guard mentioning I have Alchemy and would i enchant his sweet roll is just ridiculous.

How about a search function that was in Daggerfall where you could ask any npc a key word , and if it was something to talk about, they would interact with you. Now, it's just.....sweetroll, knee jokes, and I work for Belethor. oh well.

I still harbor sadness over its fate, however... game was rushed out the door halfway through its development and so many good features left unfinished. The game itself was just too underfunded and understaffed to really realize an ideal version of its ambition. One can only hope for DaggerXL.

They also add a lot of stuff.

You can state it until you are blue in the face, it doesnt make it true. And its not true.

Take for instance buying and selling.
In Morrowind, prices were affected by your personality attribute, your mercantile skill and the disposition and mercantile skill of the merchant.
You also directly used the mercantile skill to agree upon a price.

In Skyrim you cant haggle, there is no disposition and the only thing affecting price is personality skill and perks.

Yes, that does the same as attributes, now doesnt it?
Oh wait, no it doesnt.

Any more silly one-liners that have been refuted ad-infinitum to spew?