@ Akesh

1) Not sure what your point was, honestly did not see it.

2) This isnt about what is traditional, this is about what was designed for Skyrim. If what you want is a different game, then just play a different game. There is a fine line between "improving" and "re-designing".

That being said, I really want to adress the part I quoted. Since you seem to think a point is gotten across better through caps, let me try:

DO YOU REALLISE HOW FKING SELFISH AND IMMATURE YOU ARE BEING?

"Hey, who gives a [censored] what happens to others if it doesnt affect me, yay!".

Get over yourself. The idea is not "oh noes, he is stronger then me!", the idea is that I wont break what someone else is enjoying just so i can have my way. Thats just childish. Aka, I wont break the entire mage archetype gameplay in this game just so you can turn into a god while using only a fifth of your customization points (perks, in this case). Hell, just typing it makes me feel stupid.

Here is your entire argument, here is what I am reading from your words:


You are asking them to make a single perk tree as powerfull as 5 other combined, and dont even understand how that would break the game's balance? Are you that hopeless?

I'll repeat it again:

No, I'm screaming for what I believe that the destruction tree deserves, not "balance". There is a difference.

You think balance doesn't matter in a single player game? Haha

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1273804-the-bottom-line-with-destruction/. I could post it over and over again, but this thread is about to close anyway.

Alchemy, mainly. You just use a single hit to deliver the poison. You can have a Archery skill of 5-10, and it'd still work out fine, so long as the poison is delivered.

THIS. Many people don't care about possibility to get 1.5k of damage for melee weapons.

All they care about is to be able to enjoy their playstyle.In that particular case, a destruction focused pure mage, that traded all of it's armor and lots of hit points for an ability to unleash hell on his enemies.
While, for me it's not that big of a problem, since I'm a PC user and I just know magic will be reworked once CS comes out if they won't patch it b4, it's a huge problem for Xbox users, since they can only rely on gamesas

It's a TES we're talking about, not Dark Messiah of M&M or some other hack'n'slash game, are we? Lots and lots of playstyles and possible options for character development combined with an open world is what TES were about. Don't tell me stuff like "go play some other game".

Two-handed + conjuration / alchemy / enchantment / smithing / armor / illusion / Whatever >>>>>>> Destruction with whatever.

Archery + conjuration / alchemy / enchantment (...) >>>>>>>> Destruction with whatever.

I don't understand why this is so hard to understand.

A warrior can cause enemies to attack eachother JUST as well as a destruction mage can.
An archer can cause enemies to attack eachoter just as well as a destruction mage can.

Melee = Archery >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Destruction

...
Don't mention conjuration.
Everyone can conjure.

Don't mention alchemy.
Everyone can make poisons.

Don't mention protection.
Every class use some sort of protection.

You can ONLY compare damage output to destruction's damage output to determine if destruction is effective.
By all means, factor in gear and poisons enhancing the damage.

But don't factor in summons.
You don't factor in summons for melee damage output and viability, even though they can summon, too.
Don't factor in a warrior's armor; A mage can use armor too -- just as well as a warrior can summon.
Or rather, not as well, but that's hardly an argument in destruction's favor.

Hum . . .


Heh.


How dare they want to do something such as "Specialize" in a school of magic, when every single ounce of TES Lore, and every single Prior TES Game to this one, all supported the idea of specialization. You can even still specialize in certain schools like Conjuration in Skyrim that are extremely potent and do very, very well.Even the NPC casters in Skyrim have specializations in certain schools, anyone that's played the game for a day figures this out quickly.

So, please, tell me, why, with all of the above being absolute fact, is it such a problem for people to want to specialize given the lore, all prior games, and even elements of THIS game support that line of thought?

-

The highest damage, from the highest destruction spell in the game, does not come even close scaling to the level of opponents in the higher levels, and anyone that's actually gotten into the 30+ range will 'start' to see it, while anyone that's 50+ will know it to be true without doubt and the poor 60-70 people will be pulling their hair out.

Meanwhile a SINGLE attack from a melee specialist can do more damage than HALF A DOZEN fully perked casts from the Master level spells in the level 40 to level 70 realm of gameplay, while some claim that to be true in even lower gameplay with the right gear (something that is pointed given gear doesn't effect spell damage the way it effects melee damage).

Melee/Archer + obviously specced into health and stamina = NO MAGICKA FOR SPELLS.

Destruction + specced into magicka, magicka regen, magicka reduction = summons + heals + enemies kill each other + fear + magic shields + magic resists + AOE.

You don't know what the point is because you have reading comprehension issues...


That wasn't my point. Certain people make arguments giving examples of why they believe such. I followed suit.


Caps are a good way of trying to get points across (or should be). Obviously doesn't work in all cases as you have deftly displayed. And for the record how is that selfish??? It does NOT affect you in any way genius PLEASE explain to me how anything I said was selfish in comparison to you and others who don't want some people to have what they want in a single player game? WHO'S selfish? I will be eagerly awaiting THAT reply...


It isn't? Then WHY are you making such an issue over something that indeed DOES NOT CONCERN YOU or your playstyle? Is it because YOUR being selfish perhaps? You don't have to FEEL stupid, you already are!


Strawman genius. SHOW ME ANYWHERE THAT I SAID ANY OF THAT. I'd like to see you try. Also, I'd like to repeat this for emphasis:


Breaking the games balance? Once again, HOW does this affect you in a single player game? Hell, you probably won't even have to worry about it as I am sure that it will be up to the modders to deal with if you have the pc client. Also this sounds pretty selfish to me that you would deny me something that wil not affect you in any way.

You need to just shut up now.

You both seem to be having the same problem:

You are still looking for your expectations.

How dare I tell you stuff like "go play some other game"? Well its very simple: This is how this game is! This is how it was designed!
Skyrim was designed with no class system but a number of "perk trees" from which to choose to create your own class. Sure, you can use Destruction as your main offense, and asking for it to be fixed so that this goal is achieved is 100% legit, and I'm backing you 100% on that. It needs to scale.

BUT.

Asking to be able to ONLY take Destruction and not have to touch any other perk, yet be able to perform as well as someone who uses all their perk points, is not only illogical, it is down-right childish. You are not thinking AT ALL about how that change would affect the current game, you are just obsessed with re-creating a different game.

As someone who has been attempting to level a destruction based mage, I completely agree that destruction power needs to be increased. I am sick of spamming apprentice level spells to get the enemy to stagger. It takes half my magic to kill a common enemy in the 40+ range.

I don't know what is so hard about waltzing into a room. That's all I have to do on my melee guy. Hold down a few mouse buttons for power attacks and then loot. Honestly, it takes longer to loot than it does to kill stuff!

At least you don't have to rely on a silly gimmick like stagger as melee or archer.

If you take just the destruction, even if it'll be immensely powerfull, you will
1) end up with no health, due to need for mana (if Destro will get reworked the right way, without 99% spell cost reduction)
2) end up with no armor/defense, unless you wear hvy armor (actually, I preferred Oblivion's system where heavy armor nerfed your spell effects)

Glass cannon that annihilates things but dies from 1 shot on higher levels. Can't call that OP.


Well, one of the main advantages of TES series, aside from tons of playstyles and open world (at least from TES3) is CS. Isn't it?

It's not all that hard to send your summons in, chain nuke and shield/heal yourself on the off chance something actually attacks you at your safe distance. When you spec right it's not a very hard game.

ROFL people think this is WoW

Akesh, i wont start taking your post bit by bit, i'll just answer you in one post:

Imagine a world where all magic scales.

Now you have Mage A and Mage B
Mage A uses Destruction but also has Conjuration and Alteration perked up.
Mage B only uses Destruction because thats all he cares about.

Now you want Mage B to be as effective as Mage A.

Can you understand the problem? If you buff mage B, you buff mage A. But mage A is already balanced, because that is how the game was designed, so if you buff him the game will become way too easy.

You are basically asking them to completely break the game so you can play it in a way it wasnt intended to (using only 1/5 of your perk points), and the only real argument you have to back you up is "because I expected to be able to!".

EDIT:
Taken out of context you are right. But if that build (pure glass cannon destruction) is balanced to provide the average challenge level, then any build using destruction + somthing else becomes a powerhouse for whom the game is a lot less challenging.

Aka you SHOULD be struggling if you are only using destruction, as you are only using your character building blocks partially. If you are not struggling, then other players are bored.

I don't see anyone asking to ONLY use destruction and not having to put perks anywhere else. Please show me who is saying this? I think that this is what you and others WANT to see.

What I see is people asking for the scholl of destruction to be relevent at high levels like everything else is.

Exactly! It's mind boggling!

No. What he wants is this;

Mage A and B both have Destruction, Enchanting, Conjuration and Alteration.
However Mage B also happens to have a Bow.
Mage B shouldn't be vastly better then A just because he's using his unskilled Bow together with his Enchanting.

Some people I swear...

Let me put it this way: every single time someone is comparing destruction to a warrior's with crafted gear, every single time someone is complaining that they should not have to use other trees like Conjuration or Alteration if they dont want to, every single time someone is complaining that they should be able to "speciallize" solely in destruction...

Well thats exactly what they are saying.

They are compairing a destro vs heavy/1h/smith/alch/enchant.
They are complaining about having to use other perk trees.
They are complaining that they cant be a pure offensive mage casting only destruction spells.

EDIT:
If you have read my posts, you'll have noticed that i systematically make a point to say that im in favor of magic scaling. It NEEDS to be brought to a point where you arnt better off pulling a weapon you have no perks for. Thats a given.

destruction scale right cuse the mage can use the other tree's? lol

They're comparing Smithing+Enchanting+NO WEAPON OR ARMOR SKILLS WHAT SO EVER vs Destruction+Enchanting.

First, this game is not only about killing stuff, same for the magic. Destruction should be best and destroying things, not Conjuration. You remember there were spells like "Detect key" in morrowind? Levitation? Teleport? (mark and recall if I'm not mistaken). Teleport to nearest fort/temple? Burden? etc. edit: overall point is that for a pure mage, destruction should be main damage school. And taking into account the low HP of said mage, he should be able to deal more damage to compensate for that.

Second, what you're comparing is character with 1 maxed out skill and character with 2-3-4 maxed out skills. of course second will be stronger.
And yes, you will be struggling if you're using destro only if you don't have any means of defense EVEN if it'll be above godlike.

Edit: as for enchanting and smithing, it not only affects your offensive, but also your defensive capabilities. Aren't they?

How much can weapon damage be upgraded?

How much can spell damage be upgraded?

K, thx, bye.