and i'm saying using destruction instead of the other damage type is gimping your character on Master. This is a problem.

It doesn't "fly in the face of TES!" The game is still in the TES world. But it is a DIFFERENT GAME. Diablo 1 and 2 are different games... Final Fantasy 1-14 are different games... Fallout 1-3 are different games... This isn't an Oblivion expansion son.

And Destruction doesn't gimp Conjuration lol. Mental.

Wow - just - wow...

Your telling ME to stop looking at everthing in a vacuum and claiming that I am throwing a tantrum like a child? Look in the mirror lately?

This is a SINGLE PLAYER GAME. Do you understand that? Balance means jack in this arena except to people like you. My point was that in focusing on specializing in 1 tree that you SHOULD be strong in that specialization. It's what SPECIALIZATION is for genius! And for the record I was making an argument for ALL of the skills in the game. Destruction doesn't have to be made overpowered but in alll fairness it needs a bit of help. How come you aren't making a case of how conjuration is overpowered if you "so concerened about balance" in a SINGLE PLAYER GAME where that crap make no difference whatsover but you? And as others have mentioned, none of this would even affect YOU so I have no idea where all of your angst is coming from?

In order to survive as a Battle mage my attack sequence goes.... 1) Summon, 2) Rune (if possible), 3) Fireballs or Ice Storm, 4) Repeat 1-3 until magic is low, 5) Shield & Sword. If the target is at long rage I may preface #1 with a couple sneaking bow attacks. WOrks well unless your in close quarters and get surrounded or rushed... which does happen.

It's pretty interesting how dense people are isn't it?

[quote name='kidico4life2' timestamp='1321462398' post='19274724']
1. Destruction never gets stronger.
[/quote]
it does, but by a different mechanic than weapons. Ie you can cast stronger spells for same magicka
[quote name='kidico4life2' timestamp='1321462398' post='19274724']
2. Mage spells are either too weak or cost too much mana [/quote]
Burst damage or sustained barrage, nothing wrong with this decision
[quote name='kidico4life2' timestamp='1321462398' post='19274724']
3. Mage runs out of mana, has to run. Warrior runs out of stamina, continues to pound heavy damage.
[/quote]
Get your staff out
[quote name='kidico4life2' timestamp='1321462398' post='19274724']
4. Mages do less damage than warriors AND are 10-100x less durable in battle.
[/quote]
Aoe can multiply damage, other skills are for durability, just as a warrior must use armor/block
[quote name='kidico4life2' timestamp='1321462398' post='19274724']
5. Master level destruction spells take 5 seconds to cast, cost too much mana, and don't get stronger after you get them at level 50 while monsters get stronger.
[/quote]
So its a longer fight. If you're at level 50 you must be actively using other skills that can increase durability. Destruction alone only gets you to lvl 9. You can also stack dot effects with staff damage due to more magicka and better staffs
[quote name='kidico4life2' timestamp='1321462398' post='19274724']
6. Warrior late game can have insanely strong legendary armor and weapons that do 500 damage per regular swing without power swing and tank like a god, mages have the 100 damage master spell that takes 5 seconds to cast when they are vulnerable.
[/quote]
Aoe, dot, staff again
[quote name='kidico4life2' timestamp='1321462398' post='19274724']

I just want to be able to buy expert level flame/spark/frostbite spells. Those are so fun to use at lv 1-10 but eventually they become obsolete which svcks.

When compared to taking any of the other damage skills + conjuration, Yes it does.

7. Warriors can faceroll through the game with 2 skills and two hack buttons. Mages need to constantly switch spells, run around, drink potions, use shouts, use lydia, ect just to get by.
[/quote]
Even though you exaggerated, mage sounds more fun when you put it like this
[quote name='kidico4life2' timestamp='1321462398' post='19274724']
8. Robes with magic regen/cost reduction is nowhere near as good as the armor that makes warriors unstoppable late game.
[/quote]
If you got to a high level, surely you are now using restoration/alteration? Otherwise you are lvl9 - no need for godly stats
[quote name='kidico4life2' timestamp='1321462398' post='19274724']
9. Warriors with heavy armor and weapons can whip out their flame spell anytime and do as much damage as a mage while able to tank so much more, mages who want to fight with swords end up getting [censored].
[/quote]
If they didnt lvl destr, it will be as weak as your swordplay. At least you can get hold of a high level enchanted sword - they cant get your high lvl spells can they?
[quote name='kidico4life2' timestamp='1321462398' post='19274724']
10. I have yet to find a pure mage at any level able to complete the main quest line, I see warriors level 20ish complete it easily.
[/quote]
Gonna call bull on this
[quote name='kidico4life2' timestamp='1321462398' post='19274724']
11. A TON of people complain about destruction being underpowered and mages in general compared to warriors. No one complains about warriors be underpowered, only overpowered.
[/quote]
Whiners gonna whine
[quote name='kidico4life2' timestamp='1321462398' post='19274724']
12. This is a TES game. Players should be able to play how they want. If they want to focus on destruction without much help in other magic fields they should be able to do that. Game favors warriors heavily to faceroll through the game. Destruction is probably the most important school magic yet it is one of the more useless and full mages can't seem to do well with it without resorting to conjuration.
[/quote]
Only to the same extent as any other 1 skill. Check the numbers
[quote name='kidico4life2' timestamp='1321462398' post='19274724']
13. Full mages have to switch between 3-5 spells, conjure creatures, bring lydia, drink pots, hide behind obstacles shooting down enemies, scout the enemies well, before EVERY battle. It's fun on the first few battles but throughout the thousands of battles it becomes tedious and worthless. Warriors just charge into 10 men mobs without thinking and faceroll everything.
[/quote]
Pretty sure they intended a different playstyle for warrior/mage/thief
[quote name='kidico4life2' timestamp='1321462398' post='19274724']
14. People say well mages have stunlock and with late game enchants can cast spells without mana. Don't be dumb. It still takes 10 spells to kill one same leveled thug and it's only viable 1v1. Warriors just charge into 10 men mobs button mashing two buttons and tanking all they want.
[/quote]
Aoe
[quote name='kidico4life2' timestamp='1321462398' post='19274724']
15. In even decently balanced games, warriors can always tank more damage while mages do much more damage and can nuke from afar. Mage destruction spells are mid-close range spells and can't nuke while warriors do more damage. In league of legends we see spell casters like ryze who die instantly and move slowly but can nuke so well and does more damage than tanks like malphite who are very hard to kill but barely do any damage. Imagine if malphite did more nuke damage than ryze. Who in their right mind would want to play ryze then? Everyone would want to play malphite. Same thing is going on here. People play the more balanced characters and like to play by what is better. This is an elder scrolls game and people should be able to play how they like but instead are forced to be melee or struggle through as a mage.
[/quote]
You want other game, go play other game. You want skyrim, play skyrim

I agree with the OP on this.

You know any mage that currently has destruction on Master were to replace all of his perks and skill points into any of the other damage types he'd be doing vastly better? right?

I actually just did this on my 43 mage with console commands, and man......the difference is staggering. Ofcousre I went back, i like a challenge tbh

Says who? YOU??? It's a single player game. Balance is subjective to the person playing it and in this case not even applicable. If your warrior doesn't have any of those things, why don't you take them? Is it because you want to play a WARRIOR and don't want to use magic because it goes against the theme of what you envision for that character? You don't even realise that we are arguing for the same thing!

I think destruction is perfect; at least with my play-style as a level 48 Battlemage on Master difficulty. (Destruction, Restoration, One-Hand, Heavy Armor, Smithing, Enchanting--Not even min-maxing).

Pop off a few dual-cast spells that stagger the opponent. Switch over to my mace and paralyze the [censored] out of said opponent. Shout. Cast some situational spells such as Fast Heal, Ward, Fireball, etc. Then proceed with the skull-bashing.

Point is: People keep comparing pure destruction to min-maxed weapons and it's getting [censored] annoying. There are two arguments going on here and they're becoming entangled. Some people are saying pure destruction magic in general is not powerful enough--I disagree as if it were anymore powerful it would ruin my play-style and outshine the needs of other skills. Why use utilities if my default lightning bolt two shots bears? The other argument is that destruction magic isn't as powerful as compared to a min-maxed dual-wield warrior spec. Solution? Give the blockheads +Destruction Damage Enchant. That's it. Done. Go min-max your [censored] fireball spells and OHKO giants and gtfo of the forums.

/rant

This is not a real situation, so ill just ignore that part.

I disrespectfully disagree. The issue is not so much about destruction being too strong, as it being too strong -on its own-

Let me explain:

Most people whine about warriors vs destro without reallizing something: that warrior has maxed a defensive perk (Armor), an offensive one (1h) and 3 for utility (smith/enchant/alchemy).

If Destruction is so powerfull that a mage could take JUST destruction and still be as powerfull as a full "warrior" build, it provides, therefore, about the same level of challenge in game.

Now what happens is that when you get out of the vacuum, you'll notice a lot of players will want to play with the other trees, the other skills. So you will have someone with full destruction AND full conjuration (say), way before being close to the game's ending.

Except that Destruction, by itself, is as powerfull as 5 other perk trees COMBINED now. So whenever you add anything to that tree, you are breaking the game and drastically dropping the challenge level.

In other words, Destruction being too strong will break the game for those who wants to use it in combination with other trees.

-----

I still say Magic needs to scale. Thats a priority. But passed that, you should have to use 2-3 perk trees together for the build to work. Asking to be able to ONLY use destruction is like a warrior asking to ONLY put perks in the 2h tree. Go try it and tell me, how OP exactly did you get?

EDIT: inbefore "Says who?!?". Well says the makers of the game apparently, otherwise they would not have designed it so that you only have enough perks in each tree to last you about 10-12 levels' of upgrading.

I think that you don't know how to properly play the game as a mage. I read other threads where people have reached the 50sh levels and don't have your troubles. From what I understand there is no problem with destruction at higher levels. There probably needs to be some enchantments done maybe or some other tricks. But those who dont have your problems - by their posts it shows that they know how to play.
While you simply whine about the default damage for the spells.

And without speccing in conjuration or some other means to supplement DAMAGE (REMEMBER - we're talking pure damage here), a destruction mage is isn't very effective after reaching a plateau. There is nothing stopping that warrior from becoming a warrior/mage. All you need to do is do a bit of planning to figure out what you want and then take what you NEED to make it happen. You are not going to have to continually cast spells as a pure mage would because of you other options.

I never said I had troubles. Its just annoying and not fun. You get weaker as you level. Damage never goes up. Unlike other classes.

I said its just far more difficult compared to other play styles. And it is, I tested this with console command. It's a fact.



Oh god...

The issue isn't that Archery+Blacksmithing+Enchanting > Destruction.
It's that Archery+Blacksmithing+Enchanting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Destruction+Blacksmithing+Enchanting

In fact, Archery[Zero Perks]+Blacksmithing+Enchanting > Destruction+Blacksmithing+Enchanting.

Or another way of looking at it. If you have Enchanting+Conjuration+Destruction, no points spent in Archery. You will still do more damage by using your bow conjured with Conjuration then your Destruction spells.

Look, no one is complaining about warrior skills/abilities. We are only making comparisons to show how DESTRUCTION does not scale with level and becomes eventually less useful then just using weapons and would like to see a fix for destruction or the cs so that we can mod our game. Apparently some people are taking issue with that for some reason...

Well, to be honest the issue isn't really in Destruction, the issue is in Enchanting and Blacksmithing. Those two skills are insane damage multipliers that only get applied to Weapons, not Magic.

If I decided to take One or Two Handed perks, wear only cloth, refused to use Alteration, Restoration, Conjuration or Illusion spells I'd die faster than a Destruction only class would.
I'd be luck if I got a second swing off. You might actually keep them staggered long enough and far away enough to kill them.
But instead what I did was took Blocking and Heavy Armor, perks that compliment One Handed, and now I survive.
But you're still trying to cast flamethrower at melee range in just your panties and screaming "BALANCE!"

There's another difference people are missing when talking about two handed weapon damage vs magic damage if that's where people want to move the discussion. It takes 15 levels to max destruction, it takes 9 to max two handers. Given the relative investments, which should be more powerful? Now it's not even like they're equal when it comes to damage output.

Exactly.

Threads Before release:

"Hey guys what class build should I play?" = "Play what you find the most fun and suits your playstyle! This is the magic of TES"

Threads After release:

"Hey guys, im a destro mage on master difficulty and high levels, I notice It takes a real long time to kill stuff and I'm getting weaker as I level. I run out of magicka unless I use a enchanting exploit, what do I do?" = "OMFG YOU NOOB, TAKE CONJURATION!!!"






Not exactly. I took alteration/restoration/destruction. I keep getting weaker as I level past 40 now.

No, not exactly.
Weapons synergize to a disgusting degree with Enchanting/Blacksmithing.
Destruction synergizes with NOTHING.

There seem to be a lot of confused people that think that Destruction has innate synnergy with the other magic schools. It doesn't.

They both use mana, but that's that's actually an anti-synnergy. Using Destruction spells means you can use LESS spells from the other schools. The best magic enchants (the cost reduction) are spell school specific too boot.