Do you realize that you just answered your own question?

People that want to play destruction mages realize that they will need to pick other skills in order to be effective. It's not like we only expect to use destruction and "breeze" through the game like so many seem to think. You want to be able to heal that damage? Learn some things from resto. Want to be able to shield yourself better? Learn some things from alteration...

We spend as much if not more than you do on perks. We simply want the destruction tree to live up to it's name instead of petering out in effectiveness after a time. If your weapon skills didn't scale after level 40 while your opponents got tougher because of your leveling beyond, what would YOU think? Should you rely on conjuration?

In all fairness; I wouldn't expect: two-handed, speech, sneak, restoration to work any better then a destruction mage. There will always been builds that are more 'combat effective' in terms of damage out put, as there will be better builds that are more combat effective in terms of utility.

But the game isn't exactly Dark Souls, you actually can beat it with just about any build.

By other skills they mean conjuration. Resto and Alteration won't stop you from getting weaker as you level while all the other damage skills get stronger.

So much for "playstyles"

That's certanly not enough what you've taken.

To be fair, he cant really do much more other then grab conjuration.

I think the REAL problem with magic is that crafting is nearly useless to them. They dont wear armor, they dont have crafted weapons, they dont have dmg enchants, they dont have weapons to enchant either. Their only real perk comes from alchemy.

Compared to that, warriors and thiefs can scale the [censored] up because not only do they gain benefits from ANY crafting skill, but they also gain massive benefits from the synergies between them,

In other games Mages use snares, CCs, roots and pets then deal damage.
You have calm, fear, frenzy, paralyze, shields, heals, summons and shouts to compliment your Destruction spells.
I have a glorified autoattack that gives me carpel tunnel.
You chose to play a more active more involved higher skill ceiling style and warriors chose a passive bonus simple and quite frankly boringly repetitive style.

If you can do staggering ranged AoE with JUST Destruction and do the same damage as Two Handed/Heavy Armor/Smithing/Alchemy/Enchanting then I am sorry but that would even more broken then Warrior is.
But if you cast Calm, Frenzy, Fear, Paralyze, Summons and Destruction spells it doesn't seem so unbalanced, just more actively involved.

Well for him to max those three out he would be level 36. So now he'd be about four into another school. So you're telling me a guy can level 3 of his magic schools including destruction to max and that's not enough, and he's level 40 now? And you see no problem?

Cost reduction, mana regeneration, mana increase - what else do you need to burn down the whole Skyrim? Oh, right you thought that other skills such as enchaintments were useless and you only needed to max out your destruction skill to be the coolest mage?

I have some enchanting on the side, its mid way through.

You're basically saying conjuration, i know it. And you're right, conjuration is all you really need to win Master as a mage. Sadly its not a part of my playstyle and it never will be.

I've already stated that Archery[no perks]+Blacksmithing+Enchanting vastly outperforms Destruction+Blacksmithing+Enchanting. But reading is too hard for you?

See, while the person that uses Destruction becomes able to throw a handful more spells around, the Archer gets his damage multiplied 5-20 times over.

The whole point of having leveled enemies is that you are never SUPPOSED to be in total god mode. God mode mudcrabs, sure, but come on. Also, is this Adept or Master we are talking about? Master is not supposed to be fair.

But what you want is to be able to do the same DPS while staggering the mobs at a huge range without taking any other perks and all of it be AoE. While I'd do the same damage one mob at a time while trying to desperately get into melee range.

I am forced to take Heavy Armor, Blocking and Smithing to stay alive in melee range.
You are forced to use Alteration, Conjuration and Illusion spells to keep them out of melee range.
Sorry but we have to take the same amount of perks to do our jobs effectively.

i'm working my way towards the enchanting exploit as I level, but it still takes more time to kill tougher mobs than I would like.

I want to get stronger as I level, not weaker.

Only you get stronger as you level, I don't.

Only you will do 10x more damage than me, while being able to conjure stuff as well if you want.

A warrior can do everything a mage can, except his primary tool for defeating opponents is much stronger.

Why ooooh why, would you take Heavy Armor and Blocking to stay alive? They're hardly necessary.

A Warrior build needs... Blacksmithing and Enchanting. That's it, he doesn't actually need to spent points in any of the physical damage skills, he still outperforms Destruction.

I think I'll just create a new character that wears the same cloth armor as a Mage but uses Two Handed weapons that I'll craft with through Smithing/Alchemy/Enchanting.
And I'll REFUSE to use Conjuration/Illusion/Alteration and try to survive with my EPIC SCALING.

At least Destruction can stagger them at a range. lol

By the time I reach level 50, I want to be able to destroy everything except a few creatures that make sense. I don't want to be in total god mode, but I should be able to walk into a bandit camp and obliterate them.

Scaling should exist on creatures that make sense, dragons, giants, etc...

You equip the heavy armor you get from Blacksmithing, you just don't put any points in it. Are you deliberately obtuse? Are you under some sort of deeply confused state of mind where you think you're unable to use skills you do not spend perks on?

The Archer also has to sneak. You really have to let the numbers go. You have to stop equating this game with any multi player RPG's you may have played. The balance you claim to want is never going to exist in a single player video game RPG, nor has it ever. There is always a way to power game, always. Here its by stacking all the crafting skills and forging weapons and armor. In other games its other systems. There's nothing in the game that forces you to do this. Nomatter how Powerful it may be, there is nothing that forces you to go to a save from 30 levels ago and effectively start over. That is how the game is balanced. It is balanced by having a much higher threshold for "worthless characters" than its predecessors. It is balanced by having no classes. By having no "stats" which are traditionally part of the genre. As long as a semi reasonable character build with a semi reasonable focus (archery/melee/magic) is followed then everyone should be able to complete the game on the default difficulty. I promise you that was the # 1 goal for the team, not fine tuning all the perks and bonuses for power users.


Regardless of how your mind is wired, how you may feel about not min/maxing at every opportunity, whether or not the game should reward you or challenge you for doing so, this game is not, its predecessors have not, nor will any single player rpg to come ever be tuned to accommodate all the permutations of user defined stats that the gaming public will discover after a title is released. Its simple math. You "balance" for the swell in the bell curve. You let the outliers, the truly [censored] characters or the truly power gamed to do as they will. If a player is utterly unwilling to bother to understand the simple mechanics or spend their perks, or use guardian stones, then, yes their play will suffer. Learning all these aspects and applying them to one's play is called "depth." It may not be to you or I, but it is to many. On the other spectrum, a user who actively seeks to "break" or "game" the systems in place to achieve higher than anticipated power...free will, but there's no reason the company that made the product should feel like they need to introduce more ways for the systems in place to be broken because some already are. Just as there is nothing to stop me from making uber gear, there is nothing forcing me to do so either.

It seems what people do not understand is that there are no classes.

There are for primary damage skills. 3 of them scale damage wise with smithing, enchantment, and weapons. One of them does not (herp derp).

People keep saying you have to take OTHER mage skills to be successful. That's hogwash. This game is about playing what you want. If I want to throw fireballs everywhere, I should be able to do so.

And anyway, if you take the following loadout: Alteration, Alchemy, Illusion, Enchanting, Conjuration and simply swap out Destruction for 1h/2h/archery, your build is vastly more effective at later levels. You have to compare the damage dealing skills to the damage dealing skills. Just like you compare alteration to the armor skills. And granted, yes, a mage will be much more effective if they choose to specialize in illusion and conjuration and learn to adapt their playstyle. But that isn't the point. If a mage gets to level 50, they should be able to steamroll with fireballs, lightning beams, etc. If enemies are going to scale, we should be able to increase our damage (which is why 2h/1h/archery seem to work so well and destruction doesn't at higher levels).

Hell, I think half the issue is Bethesda chose to do level scaling badly in this game. Why in god's name is there not a combat level that enemies scale to? I pick locks and herp derp enemies are harder.

I don't understand the argument against it. It's a SINGLE PLAYER game. Why the hell are people so obnoxious about not improving destruction so those who want to focus on it can enjoy the game more? Does it make you all butthurt to know that someone who isn't so l33t and good with the combination of all the mage skills can play through the game fine and enjoy it? It just makes no sense.

Also, I am sure this was a rant, since I'm tired of seeing people bash other's for "not playing mages right." Let other people play how they want and the game should accommodate it to certain degrees. I don't really believe that Bethesda destruction magic to be so awful at higher levels.

Your right, it's NOT a real situation. I was just making a point. You simply didn't want to acknowlege it.

Secondly, as I have said several times now. THIS IS A SINGLE PLAYER GAME! A SINGLE PLAYER GAME. A SINGLE PALYER GAME!!! How many more times before it sinks in? Why do you or anyone else cares about what someone else wants in this game as it wont affect you in any way?

Lastly, The POINT would be that pure mages be generally stonger than pure warriors/archers at the end anyways as they are "glass cannons". A stronger destruction skill alone wouldn't be enough anyways as you needs perks from different trees in order to be effective and survive. Wanting properly scaling for destruction would just make it so that pure mages who use destruction as their weapon of choice can actually destroy an opponent sometime THIS year.

I have to disagree with a lot of the 'magick is useless/nerfed' argument.

Firstly, a fighter type has to rely on a range of things to survive and win: weapon skills, armour, armour skills, shield (maybe), blocking, etc.

A fighter wouldn't waltz into a combat wearing peasant clothes and only carrying one sword...wouldn't last long at all.

Which is exactly the same argument and reason as to why a mage type has to rely on things other than just 'spelling down' opponents...you can't rely on one thing alone to do it.

You have to cast protective spells, or distractions, or conjure up things to fight for you.

It seems like all the people that are trying to say "destruction is fine" are saying mages should rely on summoning or some other skill for damage... which really isn't going to be possible in some cases and it shouldn't be necessary anyway. If you were saying they should rely on other skills for defense, such as alteration, then I would agree - but why should mages have to rely on destruction and summoning for damage when warriors just need one skill to dish out damage and can still easily outpower mages?

And honestly I don't see why some people feel the need to defend every mistake Bethesda makes. Yes Bethesda is probably the best video game company out there, but it is important that they know about their mistakes so they can improve their games in the future.

Yes, that too.