[Sammie LM]

I would not put permanent death and/or item loss as sandbox features, they're more hardcoe features.

[lucile]

..."a man of limits"? Seriously?

This is not real-life... this is just a simple video game... designed for having a fun break when not doing life things... not a virtual way of life or to express life in upon itself.

simple video games for having fun breaks when not doing life things are found on the apple and android app stores.

complex large open scale MMORPGs on the PC which take time, commitment, dedication, and skill are not simple video games and should never be designed to cater the gaming needs for someone such as yourself. If you don't have the time to put into a game such as one like this under this genre, either find time like everyone else does or find a game to fit into your time. But don't do what everybody seems to be doing - bashing the publishers and developers to change their game to cater to the casual loving father who still wants to have his cake and eat it when he knows his 8 hour gaming sessions are a thing of the past.

[Shae Munro]

If you have no real life and want one from a video game, that is sad.

[Rebecca Dosch]

i would say i am a fan of both. i really think both have their place in the world. some of my favorite games ever are the ES series, GTA and sim city games. there are all very open do whatever you want games. if people have read what i wrote prior on these forums they would know i never beat any ES games though each of them has many hours logged (skyrim being the lowest at just under 300). on top of that i have only beat 1 GTA game (vice city) and the same thing goes there, hundreds of hours spent and never cared about the main story. i love these kinds of games and feel they have the most bang for your buck.

all that being said i have really enjoyed some straight forward hold your hand games. sometimes i feel the story is best told in a straight line. for as much as i love the ES series the story is never a major point of interest to me. i care more about the side quest stories than the main one since its always so broken up. games like heavy rain or walking dead hold your hand but deliver a damn good story. i am sure i wont care about the story in TESO but i will love the game play even if its on a rope more than in the past. in fact i kinda like my mmo games where i can go back to zones and destroy everything just for the hell of it.

anyway i guess the point of my stupid rambling is both types of games have a purpose and i feel this game is doing fairly well blurring the lines

[Alkira rose Nankivell]

i think your broad assumption that "NO ONE likes the themepark model of rpg's in the mmo category." is very wrong.

[GLOW...]

If you have no real life and want one from a video game, that is sad.

That's rather rude. That's not what fridgeracer was intending to say either.

I think some of you guys really need to stop bringing in "life", it creates insulting assumptions about each other and just opens a huge can of worms in general... Let's not start bringing ad-hominems to this discussion.

[Josh Dagreat]

i think your broad assumption that "NO ONE likes the themepark model of rpg's in the mmo category." is very wrong.

Very. My wording was terrible. However, when people like it, they usually like it for the necessities it brings and the holes it covers and fills, which is understandable and what I can agree with.

But I don't usually see people favoring per say, a more linear game in this category against one that is more open-ended. But when there's any game in general that favors things like exploration, that's more of an appeal rather than a repellent don't you think?

[Julie Ann]

I love the idea of Sandbox mmos, but the fact is most players just don't know how to have a good time without someone holding their hands. I know ESO is going to be theme park. I just hope the game opens up at some point, because I HATE being told what to do.

[matt white]

Here is what's in store for ESO if it continues on the current path with mostly theme park and/or linear content (shamelessly copied from a comment on massively):

The evolution of a themepark MMO:

1 year before release: Only general game mechanics have been explained, while unique game mechanics (3 faction pvp in this case) are only vaguely explained- leaving people to draw there own conclusions to fill in the gaps. The general consensus is that the product will be a game changer.

6 months before release: Most of the game mechanics have been explained more thoroughly, and the first impressions from major gaming sites start getting released. General consensus from these web sites that the game mechanics are all very "fun", "exciting", "refreshing", "innovative", despite being very "familiar". Only minor issues with the game (leveling speed in this case) are noted by the gaming sites, leading consumers to believe either that 1. the game is fantastic, with only a few minor issues 2. the preview is conveniently ignoring some of the obvious problems.

3 months before release: Beta impressions from players start to emerge. While some will be upset with how the game is turning out, the majority will like the game and be very excited by it. The fact that only a portion of the game can be fully experienced within the confines of a beta is used as an argument for the decent, but these voices are generally ignored and/or categorized as having an agenda. Gaming sites, happy with increased traffic thanks to the hype surrounding the game, release additional beta impressions, reinforcing the points made by players. Again, several minor issues are brought up by previewers, but are usually presented in a "this is a non-issue" kind of tone.

Pre-release/Release: The game is released to those who preordered. Baring any technical issues associated with launch the player reviews are generally very favorable pointing out the many strengths that were already noted in beta impressions. Gaming sites start releasing official reviews which almost unanimously consider the game revolutionary and something that raises the bar. These sites also release game guides in order to explain the slightly non-trivial game systems (crafting, class builds, etc). The population explodes after true launch, many servers are created in order to accommodate the massive demand.


2-3 Weeks after release: The first group of players have finally reached "end-game". At this point a significant percentage of the player base has fully grasped all the ins and outs of the game mechanics. Certain classes are declared to be OP and thus requiring nerfs. Discussion threads begin to emerge pointing to flaws in the game that are ruining the overall enjoyment of the game. These threads are usually put down relatively quickly and classified as just troll threads. These concerns generally go unaddressed by the developers, and are only marginally discussed by gaming sites. Population remains stable.


1-2 months after release: Serious flaws are now being openly discussed on the official forums. Such flaws usually include, boring and repetitive pvp with no consequence and boring and repetitive pve with no consequence. Since the first "free" month has ended and because of the flaws already mentioned the subscribers begin to leave en masse. The developer acknowledges some of the problems and usually promises a "jesus" patch within the next month.

3 months after release: Despite fixing some of the balancing issues associated with pvp and the addition of a new raid the "jesus" patch is generally unsuccessful at curbing the decline in subscribers. Gaming sites finally start voicing the problems that have been discussed by the players for several months. Finally, sever mergers occur in order to deal with the wasteland feel of the game.

6 months after release: Gaming sites are openly discussing the problems with the game. Articles talking about "where it all went wrong" are commonplace and also a source of heated arguments between "trolls" and "[censored]". The developer announces lay offs. The games population has stabilized at a minimal level.

1 year after release: The game goes free to play. The population increases significantly with an influx of casual players.

1.5 years after release: A new expansion is released. It includes a new level cap, more pve end game content and possibly the addition of a new race for each faction. The population has a moderate uptick.

2 years after release: Massively issues a "second look" article that discusses the changes to the game since launch. The conclusion is usually along the lines of "its really not that bad".

So yeah the writing is already in the wall for ESO I'm afraid, some "faction vs faction" PvP will help a little for those who like PvP but that's a small portion of the playerbase. What we need is a healthy mix of sandbox with the current themepark. Themepark content is good for getting into the game, for storytelling, for solo play, but ultimately that content is expensive to make and it WILL run out which leads to repetitive and boring content, aka grinding, re-running old instances, kill 100x rats.

Some of the suiting places to put sandbox content to mitigate the un-escapable content wall can be for example the crafting (like in SWG), player housing (mix of EQ2 and SWG), player driven economy (Eve and SWG), players make the houses, the walls, the stones, the furniture. The crafting process should be a mini game with wildly varying results based upon the resources, skill of the crafter and all sorts of factors.

Housing should be instanced streets in the cities (Goblin Road 2), some instanced spots of land in strategic areas and some "rare" non instanced spots in the wild. Another aspect could be player created pets, both combat pets and cosmetic pets, where the player can experiment and create unique beasts (yes like BM experimentation in SWG that was a GOOD system) I'd like the same for summons and spells but that can be difficult to balance. I could write a 20 page essay on why and how this can be a good system but walls of text don't fly well on the internet.

So there are plenty if places to put player driven content which will last MUCH longer than the dungeons and all that.

IMO.

[Jynx Anthropic]

Very. My wording was terrible. However, when people like it, they usually like it for the necessities it brings and the holes it covers and fills, which is understandable and what I can agree with.

But I don't usually see people favoring per say, a more linear game in this category against one that is more open-ended. But when there's any game in general that favors things like exploration, that's more of an appeal rather than a repellent don't you think?

just because an mmo is a themepark doesnt mean the game is linear or lacks exploration.

[Stat Wrecker]

The issue is not black and white and you will not find a concrete definition because each developer is different and most do not classify their games as such. Depending on who you ask you may get a few hundred answers on what type of game or experience defines each term, here is what it really boils down to and what most who have been around can agree on.

Sand-box: Player generated content in which developers give the community/players tools to create content and interact, shape, and change the game world around them. Most MMOs in the last ten years do not follow this model and most games in general do not follow this model.

-SWG in part, was one of the bigger "sandbox games" as you could create content in some forms in which players could interact with, the game world was also so vast that you could run in a single straight line for hours and never reach an "end" (Invisible wall). Exploration, or the lack there of, does not make a game sandboxy or not, remember that the word comes from playing with toys in a sandbox. It is what you make it out to be.

-Minecraft is the most popular sandbox game out and people do not even realize that it is. You create what you want, the world populates it with NPCs and blocks to build or deconstruct and the fact that you can run in the game forever (Until Java kills it) and see random generated content. If an MMO was built just like that it frankly would be pretty boring.

Theme-Park or On Rails gaming is what you have come to expect from games these days. Developers spend years crafting quest lines and stories in a logical progression model in which you grow as a character and play in their world. Most MMOs are like this in nature because people want structure they want a path of progression that is easily followed and understood. If a developer built a world and then just dropped you in, level one, nothing else you would probably quit after a few hours. You are strapped into the game world that the developers create, you have limited to no tools to change and shape that world in a permanent fashion. Could you siege a city? Sure, but its going to reset after a while and in the grand scheme of things does not make a difference at all.

Just because the world has invisible walls does not mean it could not be a sandbox game and vice versa.

First off,
I've been around since the beginning of time (so to speak) I remember when pong came out.
Pong is the "beginning of time" for home video games, incase you didnt know?

Without a concrete definition.
Nobody can ever say anyone else is wrong, Which has happened in this thread (as well as others) many times over.

On rails gaming (as you put it);
Is not what someone expects from the Elder Scrolls series.
Prime example; enter a dungeon (either on a quest or not) Finish 50% turn around and walk out of that same dungeon.
On rails example; To even enter dungeon you MUST be on a quest and that quest MUST be completed to exit the dungeon.

logical progression model the Elder Scrolls way;
I've maxed several characters levels in Skyrim without even starting the quest line Bethesda worked years crafting.
(You'll find many players of the Elder Scrolls series have done the same or close to it.)
And each time I played the game I ran into people/things/places I'd never encountered before.
May not seem a logical way to some to create a game but personally I think its brilliant.

Drop you into a world level one;
They pretty much did just that with Skyrim.
Take whatever path you want after getting out of Helgen & even encourage you to do so via dialog with an NPC
This line after reaching the world coming from an NPC ring any bells? "Probably best if we split up"
Your choice at that point, follow them or take the advice he just gave you and split up.
Quit after a few hours, why? Games like this is what keeps me playing them after all these years.

BTW no need to explain other game models or games, got a pretty good understanding of them honestly.
Theme Park on the other hand, just say linear design.
i.e. Once on the roller coaster your not getting off until the rides over. linear
linear is not something Elder Scrolls ever has been and should never become.
(but yes, like any video game there must be some linear aspects to it. They just dont work otherwise)

Bottom line is, Until people have actually played the finished product nobody knows what TESO will really be like.
If the whole things "on rails" I'll personally only play a month & then cancel.
Open world/free roam the way Elder Scrolls is ment to be, I'll be around awhile.
Gonna be like WoW or other current MMO's (with the exception of WWII online)
I'm wasting my time even reading this forum, Not interested in the finished product at all if thats the case.

[!beef]

i would say i am a fan of both. i really think both have their place in the world. some of my favorite games ever are the ES series, GTA and sim city games. there are all very open do whatever you want games. if people have read what i wrote prior on these forums they would know i never beat any ES games though each of them has many hours logged (skyrim being the lowest at just under 300). on top of that i have only beat 1 GTA game (vice city) and the same thing goes there, hundreds of hours spent and never cared about the main story. i love these kinds of games and feel they have the most bang for your buck.

all that being said i have really enjoyed some straight forward hold your hand games. sometimes i feel the story is best told in a straight line. for as much as i love the ES series the story is never a major point of interest to me. i care more about the side quest stories than the main one since its always so broken up. games like heavy rain or walking dead hold your hand but deliver a damn good story. i am sure i wont care about the story in TESO but i will love the game play even if its on a rope more than in the past. in fact i kinda like my mmo games where i can go back to zones and destroy everything just for the hell of it.

anyway i guess the point of my stupid rambling is both types of games have a purpose and i feel this game is doing fairly well blurring the lines

I see, though I'd like that being more of an open game didn't mean it would detract the feeling of the main story, similarly I can't say all linear games helped the focus go on it's story(fable, both two and three, though that's just my opinion). I also do not hope anything detracts from the main story.

There is also swtor of which, no matter how interesting the story got to me, it's linearity completely drained my interest, again just my opinion. Mass effect I guess could be another counter-example to that, being that despite it's linearity, the story was just too damn good.

However, in the case of elder scrolls, the openness that you felt in it's single player games is very important to it's identity. I have confidence, especially with the timeline that they chose that they will not let anything take away from the story in general. You also have to remember that in an mmo, the holding of your hand kind of deal is not as forgivable as it is in a single player game, like my experience and it seems some other's experience with swtor.

[Symone Velez]

i would love for TESO to be sandbox ... allowing complete freedom for me ingame and not holding my hand and forcing me to follow thier pre-designed path.
i also request that the compass be removed from my HUD with an on/off toggle option so i can enjoy finding and exploring the landscape on my own without being led. in skyrim and oblivion if i tried to toggle off the compass it would make the whole HUD disapier ... this was disturbing and very much upset me.
also in skyrim and oblivion and in morrowind i was able to freely roam anywhere i wanted to and pretty much do anything i wanted to. that is what i also wish to see in TESO.

[Abi Emily]

just because an mmo is a themepark doesnt mean the game is linear or lacks exploration.

Yes but it can follow a trail of influence that will make it more linear. That's only what I want to avoid, no matter if they said they're doing this or that. I'd rather voice my worries than not let them be heard at all.

[Catherine Harte]

i would love for TESO to be sandbox ... allowing complete freedom for me ingame and not holding my hand and forcing me to follow thier pre-designed path.
i also request that the compass be removed from my HUD with an on/off toggle option so i can enjoy finding and exploring the landscape on my own without being led. in skyrim and oblivion if i tried to toggle off the compass it would make the whole HUD disapier ... this was disturbing and very much upset me.
also in skyrim and oblivion and in morrowind i was able to freely roam anywhere i wanted to and pretty much do anything i wanted to. that is what i also wish to see in TESO.

They said the quests weren't going to be designed to lead you from quest hub to quest hub. Also that you will miss out on quests too if you decide that you won't go out and explore because some are just out in the wilderness and nothing leads you to them. So I don't see where the hand-holding is there.

And they've also said that you will be able to disable the compass if you want too.

[Chris Cross Cabaret Man]

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/821/feature/7245/page/1

"....Like many of you, I’ve been burnt on far too many MMOs, and I wasn’t going to give Elder Scrolls Online a pass just because Zenimax Online was using one of my favorite RPG IPs for their MMO project. Having now played the game at PAX East, I can confidently say that I wouldn’t have needed to.
The first thing I noticed about how I was playing ESO was that I was trying to play it like it was any other MMO. My sort of preconceptions about the game, that it couldn’t possibly play like an actual Elder Scrolls game, had me trying to just go through the typical MMO motions. However, what I soon began to realize is that ESO actually does play like an Elder Scrolls game. Instead of trying to play the game like MMO X, it was actually best to just play ESO like I was playing Skyrim or Oblivion. You have to sort of switch mindsets a bit, and once you do that it all gels together quite well.
Everything from the incredibly robust character creation tools, to the combat, to the quest structure, and even the UI elements, all scream Elder Scrolls. After a couple of minutes of fidgeting around I found my footing and began employing familiar Elder Scrolls skills. I found myself deftly dodging attacks, blocking powerful attacks with my shield to stun my opponent and then retaliate with a power attack of my own, and more. It really just clicks once you treat ESO as another Elder Scrolls game."

doesnt sound too linear to me.

[Lizbeth Ruiz]

And they've also said that you will be able to disable the compass if you want too.

they said the same thing in oblivion and skyrim .. but when you toggled off that compass like was told it completely removed not only the compass but also the whole HUD .. i do not want my whole HUD removed when i toggle off the compass.

[Timara White]

they said the same thing in oblivion and skyrim .. but when you toggled off that compass like was told it completely removed not only the compass but also the whole HUD .. i do not want my whole HUD removed when i toggle off the compass.

This is made by a completely different developer. So bringing up Oblivion and Skyrim doesn't matter.

[Jake Easom]

That's rather rude. That's not what fridgeracer was intending to say either.

I think some of you guys really need to stop bringing in "life", it creates insulting assumptions about each other and just opens a huge can of worms in general... Let's not start bringing ad-hominems to this discussion.

i agree that was pretty damn rude. lots of that going on around here it seems.

[Brentleah Jeffs]

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/821/feature/7245/page/1

"....Like many of you, I’ve been burnt on far too many MMOs, and I wasn’t going to give Elder Scrolls Online a pass just because Zenimax Online was using one of my favorite RPG IPs for their MMO project. Having now played the game at PAX East, I can confidently say that I wouldn’t have needed to.
The first thing I noticed about how I was playing ESO was that I was trying to play it like it was any other MMO. My sort of preconceptions about the game, that it couldn’t possibly play like an actual Elder Scrolls game, had me trying to just go through the typical MMO motions. However, what I soon began to realize is that ESO actually does play like an Elder Scrolls game. Instead of trying to play the game like MMO X, it was actually best to just play ESO like I was playing Skyrim or Oblivion. You have to sort of switch mindsets a bit, and once you do that it all gels together quite well.
Everything from the incredibly robust character creation tools, to the combat, to the quest structure, and even the UI elements, all scream Elder Scrolls. After a couple of minutes of fidgeting around I found my footing and began employing familiar Elder Scrolls skills. I found myself deftly dodging attacks, blocking powerful attacks with my shield to stun my opponent and then retaliate with a power attack of my own, and more. It really just clicks once you treat ESO as another Elder Scrolls game."

doesnt sound too linear to me.

thanks! that changes a lot of things. i too now can be slightly more optimistic thanks to your first hand account of the game. well done

[OnlyDumazzapplyhere]

I see, though I'd like that being more of an open game didn't mean it would detract the feeling of the main story, similarly I can't say all linear games helped the focus go on it's story(fable, both two and three, though that's just my opinion). I also do not hope anything detracts from the main story.

There is also swtor of which, no matter how interesting the story got to me, it's linearity completely drained my interest, again just my opinion. Mass effect I guess could be another counter-example to that, being that despite it's linearity, the story was just too damn good.

However, in the case of elder scrolls, the openness that you felt in it's single player games is very important to it's identity. I have confidence, especially with the timeline that they chose that they will not let anything take away from the story in general. You also have to remember that in an mmo, the holding of your hand kind of deal is not as forgivable as it is in a single player game, like my experience and it seems some other's experience with swtor.

i cant argue with swtor, that game got old very fast. the key to it will be giving players options as they level. if every single player will go from zone 1 to b to c and so on it will get old and people will quit. if they give you 3 different zone a's based on starting race then offer 2-3 zone b's you go to then another 2-3 zone c's i think the game will be much more exciting. for all the wow hate here i think more people would agree they got that right. you can take 2 different toons and level them to max with only doing a handful of the same quests. the leveling experience can be like 95% different and thats what makes a game interesting to me. give me options where to level dont tell me what zone is next in line

[Hussnein Amin]

So yeah the writing is already in the wall for ESO I'm afraid, some "faction vs faction" PvP will help a little for those who like PvP but that's a small portion of the playerbase.

What player base are you talking about? The game is selling it's self as a PvP heavy mmo as well as an elderscrolls title. I would say the pvper's would make up a large portion of the player base at least initially until the flaws in the system become apparent and many of them start to leave. Teso has the potential to retain a huge amount of pvper's along side Pve'rs, perhaps even a 50/50 mix if it's good enough. We'll see what happens.

[STEVI INQUE]

Snip

That's the evolution of *every* mmo that svcks, eventually. It has nothing to do with theme park vs sandbox.

[Tammie Flint]

That's rather rude. That's not what fridgeracer was intending to say either.

I think some of you guys really need to stop bringing in "life", it creates insulting assumptions about each other and just opens a huge can of worms in general... Let's not start bringing ad-hominems to this discussion.

8 hour video game sessions? I don't know any other way to classify that. That's completely and utterly unrealistic to expect anyone to do if they have a job or school of friends or a family. I guess I classify those things as life.

[Susan Elizabeth]

What player base are you talking about? The game is selling it's self as a PvP heavy mmo as well as an elderscrolls title. I would say the pvper's would make up a large portion of the player base at least initially until the flaws in the system become apparent and many of them start to leave. Teso has the potential to retain a huge amount of pvper's along side Pve'rs, perhaps even a 50/50 mix if it's good enough. We'll see what happens.

No... I'm pretty sure I would say the single-player Elder Scrolls audience is probably going to make up the larger portion of the audience at launch. There's nothing in the title "Elder Scrolls: Online" that really says PVP, does it?

There is, however, something in the name "Elder Scrolls: Online" that does appeal more towards Elder Scrolls fans.

I'll give you exactly two guesses as to what those words are.