[OnlyDumazzapplyhere]

If creating your own content would be the definition of a sandbox, that would make Star Trek Online and Neverwinter a sandbox, and I'm not comfortable with that.

I have not played either, but a game can have Sandbox elements without being fully Sandbox like Minecraft.

ESO on the other hand, does not have any/many Sandbox elements that we know of.
If you want to think about Sanbox elements, think as to whether players can build their own Cities, or trading fleets or wherether players can start a Bank/Caravan or mercinary guilds to protect the Banks/Caravans. Can players make their own Cult and take over an area? Can players make their own Alliances and take over the Imperial Throne? Thats Sandbox.

[Felix Walde]

The thing that makes it themepark, and the thing I am unhappy about, is that we have "zones" with monsters and content geared towards a certain level. To be fair, I don't know exactly how TESO is handling this. But so far it sounds similar to other MMO's. You start in a zone for level 1-5. Then you move into a zone for levels 6-10. Ect ect. When you go back to earlier areas, there is nothing for you to do.

I'd prefer that it was done much more organically. First, you'd have to break the content up. So the first zone has some content that is geared towards level 1-5 but also some content that's geared towards level 30-40. Second, there would be no interface in the game to tell you what content was geared towards what level. You learn that by trying it out. So you walk into a cave to find a stolen treasure and there are a bunch of minotaurs in there. After they quickly and easily kill you, you figure out: "hey, I guess I'm not tough enough to fight minotaurs yet." Ten or twenty levels later, you go back into that cave, kill all the minotaurs, and rescue the treasure. You get the feeling that you've gotten much stronger and it makes the progression satisfying and makes leveling feel like a reward rather than just a grind to open up the next zone.

I'm also against monster level scaling. If you climb to the top of a mountain and get killed by a troll, that should tell you that you aren't strong enough to fight trolls yet. Once you are strong enough to fight them, they shouldn't level up to get stronger. There should be additional content that is harder. Level scaling is just lazy devs recycling content for higher levels rather than adding more. What they should do is have other monsters that are stronger than trolls, like Giants perhaps, as well as content that involves fighting more trolls rather than tougher ones.

So you preferred the Oblivion system over Skyrim? Like, with having monsters level as you go?

To be honest, I prefer the same thing. I loved how the vanilla Oblivion AI was probably the smartest AI in existence. I read an article in GameInformer where a Guard ran out of food, went down to the prison, killed the prisoner for his bread loaf. Like? What the hell? How smart can an AI get. Simply amazing to me.

I didn't really like Skyrim's leveling system and Enemy AI. It wasn't smart enough. The monsters couldn't tell that after you were stunned after blocking a heavy attack, to lunge forward while you were down, while Oblivions Enemy AI was like that, it was just smart. Idk why they dumbed down the Enemy AI and changed how monsters level with you.

[^~LIL B0NE5~^]

The only true sandbox games I'm really familiar with are the Sims and Sim City.

[Siobhan Wallis-McRobert]

So you preferred the Oblivion system over Skyrim? Like, with having monsters level as you go?

To be honest, I prefer the same thing. I loved how the vanilla Oblivion AI was probably the smartest AI in existence. I read an article in GameInformer where a Guard ran out of food, went down to the prison, killed the prisoner for his bread loaf. Like? What the hell? How smart can an AI get. Simply amazing to me.

I didn't really like Skyrim's leveling system and Enemy AI. It wasn't smart enough. The monsters couldn't tell that after you were stunned after blocking a heavy attack, to lunge forward while you were down, while Oblivions Enemy AI was like that, it was just smart. Idk why they dumbed down the Enemy AI and changed how monsters level with you.

Definitely not. If you read the last paragraph of my post, its all about how I'm against the Oblivion style system.

The best one IMO was Morrowind. There was tough content all over the place. Not zones. And sometimes you'd simply have to admit that a dungeon was too hard and come back to it later.

[celebrity]

Elder scrolls never had this, why would it now?

I never said it had, that's why I never said TES is anything near sandbox.

[Lloyd Muldowney]

I never said it had, that's why I never said TES is anything near sandbox.

Indeed. If TES itself is not a sandbox, why would you want ESO to be?

[Laura-Jayne Lee]

whats the difference between TESO and any TES game ?????

[Vicki Gunn]

I think it is more Themepark then Sandbox.

Game like ArcheAge are more Sandbox.

[SiLa]

not at all, not all. but LEGO is the best example what sandbox means to be (this is except for a real sandbox)

So I guess LEGO lost it's 'sandbox' status when it started coming out in themed sets? "Here's the pieces and a guide to build a tie-fighter." - anolagous to lore. Invokes the star wars 'rebels vs empire' - factions and story-line.

What makes or breaks a sandbox, IMO, is not whether it gives you those elements; but whether it ties you to them or not. What you're getting at, here, is a brand of reductionism that leads to ludicrous results.

ArcheAge-Age Of Wushu are just two hybrids.

Wurm Online--EVE--A Tail In The Desert are three sandbox games i can pull out of the hat.

But they don't fit the strict definition given by Accolon

[DeeD]

Just finished doing some searching on the net for various game styles.
Pretty much came up with descriptions of every game type one could ever think of,

Except one.

wait for it

Themepark

But hay, I'll go with the flow.
Even a themepark like say Cedar Point lets you free roam and do what you wish while there, and is open world but yet has borders and you cannot modify it in any way.
So the best fit for a description of a theme park style game (I've ran into atleast) would be "openworld" or "free roam" of which, WoW is really not.

TESO will be more "open world" or "free roam" than anything.
Yet yes does limit where you can go, for awhile atleast level 50+ will be able to roam everywhere.
(sorta like the height restrictions on some of the rides at a theme park lol)

Post a link to a description of a theme park style game someone, I'd love to read it.
Hay even a search of wiki only produces info for Amusemant Park's and an actual theme park construction/management game.

[Nikki Morse]

Sounds to me like they've given in to the casual burn-through players and made this another ezmode solo-oriented instanced MMO. Ugh. After playing the Neverwinter beta this weekend, which has gone down exactly the same path, I'm wondering why all these companies keep thinking they can do the same thing as WOW and achieve success? I don't need glowing lights directing me to the next area. I don't want to just do a bunch of simple quests and then be directed on to the next set of givers of boring quests.

Moar sandbox!

[Dark Mogul]

Just finished doing some searching on the net for various game styles.
Pretty much came up with descriptions of every game type one could ever think of,

Except one.

wait for it

Themepark

But hay, I'll go with the flow.
Even a themepark like say Cedar Point lets you free roam and do what you wish while there, and is open world but yet has borders and you cannot modify it in any way.
So the best fit for a description of a theme park style game (I've ran into atleast) would be "openworld" or "free roam" of which, WoW is really not.

TESO will be more "open world" or "free roam" than anything.
Yet yes does limit where you can go, for awhile atleast level 50+ will be able to roam everywhere.
(sorta like the height restrictions on some of the rides at a theme park lol)

Post a link to a description of a theme park style game someone, I'd love to read it.
Hay even a search of wiki only produces info for Amusemant Park's and an actual theme park construction/management game.

Having a hard time understanding you but ill try.

Are you saying that TESO is more open world than WOW, remember none are true open world MMO's but one is deafeningly more open than the other.

[R.I.p MOmmy]

This whole thing is like arguing whether a a piece of paper is black or white depending on the light you throw at it.

As someone said earlier. Who cares if this is a game you enjoy?

[Tiffany Castillo]

This whole thing is like arguing whether a a piece of paper is black or white depending on the light you throw at it.

As someone said earlier. Who cares if this is a game you enjoy?

Obviously the OP and obviously you or you wouldn't waste your time commenting in such a pointless post, right?

[james reed]

Having a hard time understanding you but ill try.

Are you saying that TESO is more open world than WOW, remember none are true open world MMO's but one is deafeningly more open than the other.

Not exactly lol

Point was that other than in the minds of players (mainly WoW players) seems the themepark genre of games dont even really exist at all.
Even the WoW website dont claim its a themepark style game (once again, that I see atleast)
I'd really just like to see something on the net describing the themepark genre of games (somewhere other than forums that is)

Just searched STEAM (didnt think of that before) and the only results returned were actual theme park construction/management game type games.
Seems the themepark genre really just dont even exist.

[Monika]

Not exactly lol

Point was that other than in the minds of players (mainly WoW players) seems the themepark genre of games dont even really exist at all.
Even the WoW website dont claim its a themepark style game (once again, that I see atleast)
I'd really just like to see something on the net describing the themepark genre of games (somewhere other than forums that is)

Just searched STEAM (didnt think of that before) and the only results returned were actual theme park construction/management game type games.
Seems the themepark genre really just dont even exist.

that's what i think, dafq is the difference between TESO or MW for example??? both are open sand box-y games

[Hayley Bristow]

Not exactly lol

Point was that other than in the minds of players (mainly WoW players) seems the themepark genre of games dont even really exist at all.
Even the WoW website dont claim its a themepark style game (once again, that I see atleast)
I'd really just like to see something on the net describing the themepark genre of games (somewhere other than forums that is)

Just searched STEAM (didnt think of that before) and the only results returned were actual theme park construction/management game type games.
Seems the themepark genre really just dont even exist.

The issue is not black and white and you will not find a concrete definition because each developer is different and most do not classify their games as such. Depending on who you ask you may get a few hundred answers on what type of game or experience defines each term, here is what it really boils down to and what most who have been around can agree on.

Sand-box: Player generated content in which developers give the community/players tools to create content and interact, shape, and change the game world around them. Most MMOs in the last ten years do not follow this model and most games in general do not follow this model.

-SWG in part, was one of the bigger "sandbox games" as you could create content in some forms in which players could interact with, the game world was also so vast that you could run in a single straight line for hours and never reach an "end" (Invisible wall). Exploration, or the lack there of, does not make a game sandboxy or not, remember that the word comes from playing with toys in a sandbox. It is what you make it out to be.

-Minecraft is the most popular sandbox game out and people do not even realize that it is. You create what you want, the world populates it with NPCs and blocks to build or deconstruct and the fact that you can run in the game forever (Until Java kills it) and see random generated content. If an MMO was built just like that it frankly would be pretty boring.

Theme-Park or On Rails gaming is what you have come to expect from games these days. Developers spend years crafting quest lines and stories in a logical progression model in which you grow as a character and play in their world. Most MMOs are like this in nature because people want structure they want a path of progression that is easily followed and understood. If a developer built a world and then just dropped you in, level one, nothing else you would probably quit after a few hours. You are strapped into the game world that the developers create, you have limited to no tools to change and shape that world in a permanent fashion. Could you siege a city? Sure, but its going to reset after a while and in the grand scheme of things does not make a difference at all.

Just because the world has invisible walls does not mean it could not be a sandbox game and vice versa.

[Kayla Bee]

The biggest Problem in TESO will be the Phasing, if I choose a other answer then my friend then I not see him anymore (this can be happen very fast). I think this will be the most problem.

[Sophie Louise Edge]

The biggest Problem in TESO will be the Phasing, if I choose a other answer then my friend then I not see him anymore (this can be happen very fast). I think this will be the most problem.

No you guys won't be phased from each other. Just the quests will be. So if you save someone and your friend decided to kill him. Well that guy later on might have a quest for you. If you guys are still in a group together you'll see each other he just won't see that NPC you saved and doing a quest for.

[Amy Smith]

The biggest Problem in TESO will be the Phasing, if I choose a other answer then my friend then I not see him anymore (this can be happen very fast). I think this will be the most problem.

They can get around that pretty easily actually, BioWare did it for TOR. Here is how the system was broken down, into class story and group content. With your own class story, even if you are grouped to do the content (Say you are a Jedi and a Trooper friend joined), only the Jedi in this case choices would matter when playing the quest. The trooper character could still pick a decision and get credit for it, but no matter what the Jedis choice is what was shown and played out.

In group content it was based on a random roll. If everyone in your group picked a light side choice and you picked a dark, and won the roll, the event would play out for everyone based on your choice. All party members still got credit in their light/dark points for the pick they made even if they did not win the roll. I can see a system working similar in TESO, it is not a big deal if the right type of system is put in place.

[Kelly Osbourne Kelly]

What I want to tell ya is, that if I burn the Village and he not, he get Follow Up Quests and the Full City is faded out and I stuck on this place and have to do other stuff, so the Group Play broken at this point.

That is what I realy hate on Phasing, and that is also what I see on PAX.

[Ron]

What I want to tell ya is, that if I burn the Village and he not, he get Follow Up Quests and the Full City is faded out and I stuck on this place and have to do other stuff, so the Group Play broken at this point.

That is what I realy hate on Phasing, and that is also what I see on PAX.

I don't know if you ever played WoW or TOR but most MMOs now use phasing in some form or another and for group content the phase will not move on until everyone is finished with the quest. You will generally not go into a separate phase if in a group or only one persons choices will change the phase and you just follow it as it goes along. This should be a non-issue as other MMOs have handled it fine without people getting stuck in different sections of the phase.

Even if a quest does have sperate parts it is not the end of the world if you get "lost" for a few minutes to catch up, phasing does not always mean a separate copy just for you. It can also mean a quest or area is divided into phases but all players in that specific phase can still interact with each other. This technology is well understood and has been implemented many times in past MMOs without much issues or with the concerns that you bring.

[Spencey!]

Obviously the OP and obviously you or you wouldn't waste your time commenting in such a pointless post, right?

LOL

burnnnnnn , ouchhh. lol

[Jessica Stokes]

Obviously the OP and obviously you or you wouldn't waste your time commenting in such a pointless post, right?

I actually meant both of you.

Both arguments are a bit useless, but yours the most. You are arguing that the game is not an hybrid because it does not have sandbox elements? but... the game has some sandbox elements wether small or big it does not matter that is what I meant by my post.

Anyway I don't even care for a truly sandbox game as you put it.... And ESO does not care about being truly sandbox as you put it and I think that is perfect. Because according to you not even the TES IP is sandbox... and guess what... this game is about the TES IP... and the TES IP is not sandbox... and this game is about the TES IP.... and the TES IP is not sandbox.... and this game is about the TES IP.... and the TES IP is not sandbox....and this game is about the TES IP.... and the TES IP is not sandbox....and this game is about the TES IP.... and the TES IP is not sandbox....(I could go on for a long time but I'm sure that may be stuck on your head by now)

This game is an MMO, based on the TES IP. It never set out to be sandbox.

If you are crying for a true sandbox game, then go on and enjoy minecraft or any other... for my part, I have enough sandbox with real life itself. I will enjoy this game for what it is.

[Kayla Oatney]

So reading from many comments, I can't help but notice that most people do not like the limiting aspects that the themepark model of rpg's in the mmo category can potentially bring. Alright, so it's being suggested that the devs are deviating from that, opening up the other provinces when you're a higher level(not even sure if it was ever confirmed enemy provinces were going to be locked indefinitely), but they claim they've always been more sandboxy, but still had things like zones and such.

Well, I think this should be made clear, everyone can agree that you want MORE sandbox than there already is? Then voice it, want it to overcome the themepark model, to the point of it no longer being a themepark mmo? Want something even more revolutionary? All you have to do is voice it.

People can argue on and on about how themepark or sandbox elder scrolls online is sounding to be(we won't know until we get to the beta anyways), but that's not the point of this thread. The point is that we already know the themepark feel is going to be there to some extent, and that alone is already worrying a lot of people, so why not vent our absolute disgust against it?

Yes, people can also argue that single player rpg's have felt linear in their own right as well, but no matter how this is argued, it's obvious the majority feel such a difference between single player and massively multiplayer rpg's. One can also argue that, what the hell is the point of this thread, the dev's have already said they are trying to not follow this kind of rpg model(just using as an example here ok, I don't know whether the devs SPECIFICALLY said that, but they did lead to some hints from the gameinformer interviews), alright, so if they said that, that's cool. Doesn't mean we shouldn't reiterate or reinforce our hatred of the themepark model.

The basis of this thread is, to put it simply, better safe than sorry. I know I want this game to be great, I can't deny that. So why not work on our part to make sure we meet that on the other end?

And people, once again, do not get fixated with the labels "themepark" and "sandbox", I chose these two for the sake of familiarity with what I'm saying. True, the single players are NOT totally sandbox, but let's not litter this thread with label wars, it is the concepts that are the important things here. Do not take my argument as being pure something either, I am for a hybrid, but in this case I'd like the openness to dominate the themepark model.