Yeah. I never would like to see this game fail. It's just coming to terms with its existence and direction that will take me time. Hoping gameplay will put my mind to rest.

And quite. Language is the true fallacy here.

Edit: Just to add that 'mainsteam' does not bother me. It bothers me when the mainsteam is against my tastes. Personal preference of course

Again, specifically addressing the idea that the fans of the TES series are primarily mainstream. I would tend to disagree, and would like to understand why he thinks this is the case.

Review, sales, pretty much everything that's been said about Skyrim outside of the forums here.

Can someone define to me what Mainsteam means in this context?

The context of how fans think (the 'Mainsteam' ones) and how that applys to what they want to see in The Elder Scrolls, isn't that just generalization based on projection or gut feeling?

I propose to you there are no Mainstream fans. How would you react?

Edit: If you can't define to me Mainsteam then I can't understand this. Unless you are putting groups with overlapping qualites into the Mainsteam catogory.

I think it's an implicit assumption that, now you mention it, is actually untested. I don't strictly disbelieve it, but the muddied definition of the word combined with the fact that I don't have immediate access to market data and widespread taste polls means you've given me something to consider.

Why do we always end up with these vacuous assertions that aiming for bigger, mainstream audiences is somehow better?

Should all restaurants ditch making fine food and start chucking out quarter-pounders and pizzas? Should literary fiction authors give it all up to write about teen lesbo vampires instead? Should all indy music acts throw in the towel and sign up with manufactured boybands?

Sometimes it's far better to stick to what you're good at, and play to an established crowd, than to generalise your abilities for the sake of broadening your appeal. There's every chance you'll weaken your act and end up with fewer interested people than you had before.

And we've seen many an mmo go down that road lately.

Just throwing this out there.

Were core Fallout fans angry that Bethesda were making Fallout 3, and we're making it fps... Oblivion with guns?!

Turns out it was highly acclaimed, popular, and sold a [censored] load of copies.

I know it's different because we don't have anymore classic style fallout games, but just an example of a different studio, different engine, different play style etc.

In addition, this is a prequel spinoff, unlike Fallout 3 which was main series installment. Yet more food for thought, I suppose.

This is a valid point. The question becomes: why did people appreciate the game? Was it because of those changes or in spite of them?

I would say it is the latter- Bethesda can write amazing stories, characters, and plot arcs. They can create an immersive, detailed world. These are the main reasons people enjoyed Fallout 3.

With TES:O, Bethesda is not involved, so you actually have the opposite: complete gameplay mechanic change on a large scale, without the touches that Bethesda is known to bring to the game world. Zenimax's ability to write an engaging story is unknown. This is very concerning.

Zeni's team not being proven is a big unknown, but as the article said (I really hate referring continually to the same things, I hope we get more info soon) they are consulting with BGS on lore. So that issue is teetering neutral for me, at least for now. The very same new info I'm asking for will, of course, influence the scale.

well everyone thought creating the universe was a bad idea but God went ahead and did it anyways XD

it turned out ok I guess

maybe TES will be better than wow ...just saying

Another thing to consider, with ref to Fallout 3.

Bethesda brought along many fallout fans into TES universe and fan base, by what they did with Fallout 3. This helped make skyrim even more of a success.

They did the same by making Oblivion a console game first and foremost. Core PC gamers didn't like it, but by increasing the fan base a tonne (oblivion was much more successful than Morrowind) they increased the core TES fan base and I believe Skyrim again is a testement to that success.

Although the MMO is unknown, it has the potential to bring across a lot of MMO fans to TES universe, thusly making the series even more successful, as well as the fallout series.

Hopefully if it is a success, both Fallout 4 and Elder Scrolls VI will benefit greatly from that.

Star Wars Galaxies did all of that, and was rather successful until they decided to turn the game into a WoW clone in space.

I never played SWG - I was too busy with DAOC, but I've heard this said before many times on this forum and others. If the game was so successful, why did Sony push the changes that made everyone leave?

Because of WoW. The CU/NGE was one of the worst mistakes in gaming history. Dwarfed perhaps only by Zenimax's upcoming mistake.

Also, I won't "chill" about this until they fix the game.

I am chill. This is exactly the game i've always wanted. I get to travel all over Tamriel with s bunch of friends? Yes please!

I would argue that Skyrim is more complicated than Morrowind...

I would argue that Skyrim added more gameplay aspects and RPG elements than it stripped away.

Why do I get the sense that one of the options under "fix" in this post is "abandon the project?" Also, can you see THE FYOOO-CHURRRR!!!!!? (sorry, I spell it like that compulsively). Because generally it's impossible to tell if something is a mistake until its aftermath is calculated.

This is hilarious forum gold. I think whatge meant was, if SWG was widely that successful then the developers wouldn't have felt the need to push for change. WoW came out with its boring old combat that nobody enjoys and blew all other mmos out of the water. I can't even count how many times somebody has tried I predict these things and been wrong. So if this is going to be the biggest MMO mistake of all time, can you hook me up with some lottery numbers?

Just want to put this one up. will teso be free2play ones you bought it in store or will it be pay monthly?
anyone knows this?

Which it has been too many times in previous attempts at WoW clones. There's no excuse for investors to keep falling for the same trap over and over. The right thing to do is innovate, not imitate.

This is a fallacy. A huge one.

To give an example - I am a huge X-Men fan. Obviously, when I heard they were making an X-Men film back in 1999-2000, I was extremely excited. I had wanted an X-Men movie my entire life. It came out, it was worth the wait, I loved it. Then I heard they were making a sequel. I was just as excited, and I was just as happy when I saw the movie.

After X2 released, I became very active in the online X-Men films community, following the production of X-Men: The Last Stand, and since its release, the productions of the films that followed that. There has been much criticism on the interwebs about X-Men 3 and Wolverine. I happen to love both of those movies, although I do recognize shortcomings. However, one thing that is common is always hearing that Fox should "listen to the fans" and "follow the source material"...

Which is nice in theory.

But impossible in practicality.

Which fans? Which source material? I have read the Dark Phoenix Saga. In many ways, I do believe that X-Men 3 follows the original storyline, and even the changes made can find some precedent in the original material. But which material do you consider? There are 50 years worth of runs, numerous different titles and alternate takes. The fans themselves are divided about what makes the X-Men the X-Men. So who does Fox cater to? Or, instead, do the film makers just have to make their vision of the material? It is the latter. Ultimately, the film makers just have to make their vision of the film, and it's up to the fans to like it or not.

Now, let's apply that to Elder Scrolls.

I think it's fair to say that I am a "true" fan. I have been with the series since the release of Morrowind, it quickly became my favorite game of all time, and remained as such until Skyrim took the crown. My top 3 all time games are Skyrim, Morrowind, and Oblivion. While I don't have huge experience with Arena and Daggerfall, I have gone back and downloaded them and played them a bit.

I feel that Skyrim is an improvement in virtually every way over Morrowind. Yes, there are some things missing from past games, but I believe even more was added, to make the game even deeper and more complex.

However, many people have a different view on that. They feel that Skyrim has been simplified, and is not as deep as Morrowind.

So which fans does Bethesda cater to? Do they add in all the Morrowind complexity, and isolate fans like me who think Skyrim is a vast improvement? Do they go the Skyrim route and isolate many of the Morrowind fans? Either way, you are not catering to a portion of the fanbase's wishes and desires for the game.

Or ultimately, do they just have to make the game in their vision, and leave it for the fans to decide?

How can you cater to your core fanbase when ultimately, you don't have one because your core fanbase can't even agree on what makes the games great?

The real point is, no one should have any feelings towards Bethesda regarding the MMO. The game is being, and has always been in development by Zenimax Online Studios. ZOS was working on this most of the time that Skyrim was in development and even during Fallout 3. This MMO has nothing to do with anything Bethesda has developed or will develop, other than sharing the world of TES.

In fact, these boards will not even be hosted on this forum in the future that is how separate these two entities are.


Plus it supports the MMO game play to have dedicated forums for the characters.

I don't know. Pretty sure they haven't said. That is, at this point, the sole determining factor remaining over whether or not I buy it.

Folks...can we please tone it down abit and keep this civil? I don't want this thread being locked and I hate seeing some of the personal attacks going on in here.


I would also like to point out that Also, Matt might not have made very succesful games before DAOC but you have to realize we are talking about an MMO and not single player games. If this were a single player game I would be very worried.