At which point you install something like the Giants mod - it's much easier to add high level mobs than it is to mess around with some defective level scaling mechanism, or you go play the Bloodmoon expansion (ouch!).

How about leveling system that takes into consideration what skillset you have
Would it be so hard to mod in?
(for example if you concentrate on non-combat skills, then enemies improves much slower)

Become Mike Tyson and this is pretty true in real life, too.

The problem isn't Level Scaling per se, or even Skyrim's implementation of it; At least as it applies to NPCs. It's how it applies to players that is the problem.

I saw similar issues with my character - I had a lot of fun going on a pickpocketing/theft spree, which leveled up my Stealth, Lockpicking, Pickpocketing, and Speech. So much so that I had trouble with a single scaled enemy, even with a companion. Forget about 2 or more at a time.

Using the console, I removed my non-combat oriented Thief perks and "moved" them over into armor, archery, and 1H; Now my character is viable again.

It feels like the Thief tree got the short end of the stick - Speech and Lockpicking have zero combat utility. Pickpocket is extremely situational (and even then only at the deep end of the tree), Stealth somewhat situational. Alchemy can be extremely powerful, almost game-breakingly so with the right build, but it's not in it for the long haul, unless you spend hours between every dungeon or quest farming materials.

The end result is that advancing in fully two-thirds of the Thief skill trees effectively makes you weaker in combat against scaled enemies.

Sure, you can toss in archery and illusion, or enchanting, and have an extremely powerful character. This requires going down the trees in the right order, and not advancing too quickly down the stealth trees.

People want an open world game, and that they don't want the gameplay mechanics to force them down a path. Great - but as it stands, rather than forcing players down a single path, the current implementation of player leveling says in effect "Choose any path you want, as long as it doesn't involve Thievery."

I'm pretty sure the OP and I are playing different games. I'm on Master, I've put points into non-combat skills and I am rolling through. I even started a second character, found some spots that were way too tough and ran my main in to explore and had no problems.

I don't like how a dungeon gets locked to a certain level. If I am level 5 entering a level 10-15 dungeon, then the dungeon gets locked to level 10. So when I decide to go back to the dungeon, and I happen to be level 15 when I enter, everything will be locked to level 10, making the dungeon easier and probably not much challenge. I would rather have the dungeon scale to my level every time I enter it. If I enter at level 5 and it is a level 10-15 dungeon, then the dungeon will be level 10, but if I leave and come back at level 15, then the dungeon will be level 15

Its fine to me, I have realized that some places/enemies are purposely difficult, and others not so much. Sounds more like you need to work on how you approach your fights in the game.

I am getting annoyed at the item level scaling.....the dungeons not so much.

I have been forced a few times to leave a dungeon as it got too hard, and then come back later and try again later.....what I dont like is the fact that most armors are non-existant at the start of the game....and the only way to 'unlock' the armors is to level up.


I want to see people with tough weapons when my character is still a noob, I want to see more loot on the walls other then iron weapons which seem to be everywhere in the tombs, despite me seeing elven and dwarven coming out of the chests. Im sick of 'levelling' up and suddenly all the shops having the next rank of items.

Sorry but complete nonsense is what you say. And you know why?
Play for example Gothic 3 (svcks in many things but it got that thing right) and see how scaled areas, dungeons etc work while you are able to explore at least 70% of the map early in the game. Game still poses a challenge at the end because there is plenty of room for high level monsters to lurk. There are plenty of areas from which you can start, and when you level up it's only natural that you decimate opponents that once made your life harder.
Or play Oblivion with Obscuro's mod and see that a modder could make it challenging while completely removing that svcky level scaling that poor game had when it was released.
And there are many more...

I don't understand how people would like for example novice spells from when they started the game, doing the same damage as master spells to the same enemies when they get to level 50. Do they like the effects or something. Because in essence only the effects change their destructiveness is the same since the same enemies have gotten stronger. And yes, atm in my game, i want to go to a bandit camp and anihilate it with ease because i am level 35, already slayed 10 dragons. And after that i want to go to some daedric ruin and get beaten to a pulp.

Scaling does not mean challenge - it's silly saying such a thing and proves you haven't been playing any rpgs until now. Scaling takes away from immersion, rp and feeling of progression.
That's how rpgs worked since the dawn of time. If you like scaling so much you can also play a static action game with no levels at all. Why bother pressing that level up button?

But anyhow if the developers wanted to do this anyway for one reason or another they could at least omit non-combat skills from scaling so that they are beneficial to raise, for everyone to play the role they want without feeling punished by the game.

Stealth 80 something and perked, block 15. Light armor, archery, one handed and destruction in the 30s to 40s iirc. So far stealth is totally viable in combat IF you commit to it.

The problem isn't Level Scaling per se - Correct. The problem is the lengths to which Beth. go to protect the level scaling, protect the player from themselves, protect the all important balance. My stealth character is totally playable but it is not the character I want to play, rather it is the character the game wants me to play - after a stealthy start I had to either commit or restart.

So, forget the character you want to play and create the character the game wants you to create and the level scaling works ok, all be it lacking in expectation anticipation and excitement that comes from static levelled encounters. Also, do not expect to find ANY truly interesting artefacts, as they would break the balance. Heh, after all that was said about Ob, Sk turns out to be as bad, just not as obvious about it... WTB TES RPG

They should scale relative to your combat skills, would be a better system.

ok first thing first i am 39 and i have been playing rpgs for the last 15 years so i iknow a little of the subject.

second. while i disagree with bleak in some things he say, i recognise his logic as solid and his statements ring true to me, plus he has tried the game far more than i have.

ok if mobs would only level as much as you level in combat. that will bring us another problem. i will make a level 10 char, 1 level combat, 9 levels non combat and then i will fight level 1 mobs , so then i would be overpowered, so the solution has to be something like make the mobs level as much as you level in combat and for ex just half the non combat levels you have, so for my 1 level combat 9 levels non combat char i will find say level 5-6 mobs. (just an example not as easy to balance as this because surely among the non combat abilities there are big differences)

you see bleak i think the problem imo of all the ES games i have played in terms of equilibrium, is that the scope of these games is so huge it is impossible to make everything work as perfect as all players would desire.

when i played morrowind everything was going fine until i decided to level up sneak up to level 100, it was very easy to do so i did it.
At first it was not a game breaking, just a nice shield stolen in balmora a decent weapon, etc.
But then i went to arvent plantation. there was daedric equipement in shelves in a house were npcs left you roam freely.
What happened? after three days trying i cleared and killed everyone there and when i was done it was game over because after that i could one kill nearly everything.
so true that was gamebreaking, but still the game was worth every penny, and those three days in arvent plantation are among the best moments i have spent playing RPG games



Oblivion. i decided not to play it because the all scaling system made the game unplayable for me, but then oscuro came to the rescue, and yes in the end i find one of those dungeons with uber equipment (not sure if it was because ooo because i had a ton of mods installed) and after that game over, there was no way any mob in the game could make me a scratch, but hey game over after + 120 hours of pure diversion, so again woth every penny.


So i do agree with what you say and i must admit you have discouraged me from trying alquemy and blacksmithing, but it is just a matter of patiente, the modders community will again come to the rescue and i am sure that we will both be able to tune the game to our liking just by chosing the mods that no doubt will achieve that.


Finally: the day bethesda makes a TES game and the modding comunity does not come to the rescue, that day will be the end of TES games, i only hope bethesda never forgets that because i love TES games.

Yea Bethesda makes excellent games (FO3 became my fav pc game of all time- with mods though) and modding community really helps to satisfy everyone.
Truth is i hate this "trend" of newer rpg games becoming like that, having no real progression or rewards and new players (oblivion+ who haven't played any "old-school" rpgs) will never discover these things and feel the excitement and immersion they can offer.
I understand that you can't make everyone happy about every aspect of the game, especially in a game as vast as Skyrim.

Enemy scaling makes a lot of things easier for development but good old area scaling (without making the game linear or anything) is far more superior in both immersion and thrill. Everyone who has played enough rpgs will know what i mean. The thrill of gaining the level, of being able to challenge the impossible foe, of being able to slaughter great numbers of enemies who gave you a hard time at the beginning. Or when finding a treasure etc.

Yes OOO also added custom loot in dungeons and added the things i say above to a large degree. It was a complete overhaul directed to this exact "rpg feeling", very well made and very successful. I wish the Skyrim devs offered these aspects to a larger degree instead of trying to simplify or balance everything out perfectly.

As for the non-combat skills leveling though i have to consider them broken. And that's because even if a skill like enchanting, gives you tremendours benefits (for melee only) at the very end, as you progress in it (as with the others) it penalises you more and more until you get these benefits. And the other skills imo don't even have the end game benefits that will make them worth raising at some point. I'm trying to find if there's something i'm missing here but it seems this has been overlooked or was not considered a big deal as not many would notice it.

Oh sure, Oblivion introduced us to level scaling...

oh wait, no, THEY'VE BEEN DOING THIS SINCE 1996, SINCE ARENA!

What about other RPGs... oh wait, they're scaled too.
Ultima, Bioware, Obsidian RPGs, all of them are level scaled.


But of course, Oblivion was "fixed" by OOO that completely removed level scaling, right? WRONG! It did not removed level scaling at all, it's still in, it's just tweaked.


So saying how level scaling is so unnatural, added for the sake of "easier gameplay" or even being unRPG-like is just false

from what I have seen so far, they have got this about right this time. Yes I loved Morrowind (like most of us here), but it was incredibly unaccessible to the casual player or younger player. I couldn't even connect with a mud crab for about 5 hours. Oblivion tried to correct this with level scaling, but as we all know, they went miles too far the other way and utterly damaged the game. I think although I prefer the hardcoe Morrowind model, I think this current compromise is about right.

I am level 9 at the moment, and I still have no chance against a Frost Troll!

I like the level system. It feels more natural

The game would be immensely BORING if you could just outlevel all the content. Level scaling is necessary and what we have is a good middle-ground.

" I was a higher level than last time but my gear was much better since i was better prepared so i expected it to be easier than last time on the "speed run". It wasn't. "


This is the way games SHOULD be! Stop whining.

I haven't encountered any problems with level scaling yet. 40 hours in.

I agree 100 percent I hate lvl scaling. I want to gain Lvls get better gear and go back and own things that once gave problem.

I quit the other elder scroll games because of this.

I, myself, definitely wouldn't want this.

There needs to be a "small" population of challenging enemies, and a large population of pushovers when you reach higher levels. Anything else is unrealistic and boring.

To me, it is boring when I have to hit an enemy ten times to kill it. It is much more fun when my hard work to get to level 50 pays off by allowing me to one-shot most encounters.

I can't really think of an RPG that has zero level scaling. I could be wrong but I just don't think it would be successful with none at all.

My Skyrim character is only lvl 13 at the moment, and I'm only just starting to see the scaling. So far its not bothering me at all, but "just in case" I'm discovering all the locations I can, popping in the door to "lock the level" then leaving.

Can't lie. I like to progress my character to high levels, then come back and curb stomp the hell out of places that gave me a hard time on my way up.

YES LOL I THINK THEY HAD LEVEL SCALING IN PACMAN TOO

Sure obsidian games like Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment or the Ultima series had enemies scaling with level too... Yes sure i think Ultima 6 on SNES had level scaling too i remember now!
Who told you all this nonsense???

Perhaps you did not understand what we are talking about and you were talking about difficulty scaling? Also read the OOO.full changelog and check again if my "eliminating the level scaling" expression was right or wrong. Or do you consider level scaling some random encounters in neverwinter nights which is so subtle that does not affect gameplay at all? Levels were far from obsolete in these games, they mattered A LOT and these games have all the things i mentioned in my previous post.
Don't go comparing this ridiculous level of enemy scaling which makes levels obsolete to some minor non-intrusive adjustments neverwinter nights had.



Yea games shouldn't reward you for anything, just barge in, no preparation and spam click! If thats your capacity please don't even mention it in this thread.

Pretty sure Daggerfall was the first Elder Scrolls game to have level scaling.