I completely agree with this topic, keep it alive and on first page.

The only downside to level scaling: if you make even a few bad decisions in your character build, you're gonna hit a dead end. Not really that big a deal imo - just make focused builds.

Up side? I don't HAVE to do that hyper-alert scavenging or mule worthless junkto my companions just to stay on the game's difficulty curve. I get to focus on the things I feel like focusing on.

Were those mobs "Bandits" or were they Bandit variants, i.e. Chiefs, etc. If it's the later, then upon reentering that region, it added mobs at/around your level to keep those places relevant, if it's the former, than Bandits must have an absurd level range like 5-40 or something crazy. The only thing I can tell you is to enter/reenter dungeons you know only had lowly bandits, and power-up a combat skill, I believe it takes an in-game month for them to respawn? Hopefully the CK is released soon, and someone can get out a quick, but well implemented over-haul out. Even though I've been defending level-scaling, and don't find it restricting, because it's nowhere near as bad as Oblivion, anyone saying otherwise is being hyperbolic to an insane degree, I'll probably grab it when it comes out.

I only have one character so far, and I happened to level one-handed and archery to start to go along with my non-combat skills, so this won't/isn't effecting me, but perhaps someone should write up a thread and hopefully it gets stickied to warm people who plan to play on the highest two difficulties the dangers of not leveling at least one combat skill so as to not screw yourself later in the game.

I think level scaling beats the alternative of no challenge if you out level an area.

Specific builds? You mean only the combat skill you are focusing on? So much for exploring, reading books and using the skills the game gives you. All non-combat skills degrade you more than the benefits they give you!

I started a 5th playthrough without unlocking anything (except chests with high level loot), reading any books, brewing any potions, crafting anything etc etc. I just went and barged in dungeons/camps and it was a breeze! Game rewarded me for doing nothing!

On the characters with which i had "prepared" myself before battle, brewed potions, crafted items, or used pickpocketing/picklocking to gain money to get better equipment - these actions actually worked against me instead of rewarding me for doing them. I made the mistake of raising other skills too except my combat skills and instead i got weaker!
I ask for the 1000th time: What is the point of non combat skills if they penalise you more than they benefit you?


They weren't variants they were the same lowly bandits i had crashed with my lvl 5 character.

Difficulty has nothing to do with you getting weaker as you do all these non-combat actions. Except if you play it on easy and 1 shot everything from level 1 to 50 (thus no feeling of progression or degression) difficulty has nothing to do with this. I am NOT complaining about the absurd difficulty when i raised those skills. I am complaining that it was much easier before and it's not even worth raising them. Levels should matter, it's an rpg for god's sake.

Wow there is a lot of people in this thread that have no idea how leveling and leveling of items works in skyrim...

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Leveling


'Clearing an area' depends on a lot of factors. In general i'm finding combat far far easier at level 19 than 5 pretty much everywhere.

And the OP is wrong, i've been doing a bit over everything, enchanting, restoration, alteration, sneak, lockpick (I actually spent 4 levels of training on lockpick and sneak).

Only things I haven't really touched are 2-hand, illusion and alchemy.

Why can't you do both? I explore, craft, and fight, on Master, without any problems so far (I die, and have to abandon certain things, because I'm not capable of fighting certain enemies yet, didn't want this to sound like it's a cakewalk), I may not be level 30+ like you, but I've done enough to see the effects of level-scaling. You're trying to make it sound like it's this annoying game-breaking thing, "Zomg I have to level a combat skill, in a game where my character is supposed to slay a dragon god, fight in a civil war, etc." This isn't FO:NV where you can beat the game without killing a single thing. I understand wanting to put your main focus on non-combat skills first and foremost, but there's nothing stopping you from leveling a single combat skill along with them, it's not hard at all, you're the one who's making this decision not to. Again it's not an either or problem, it's very doable, it doesn't take theorycrafting, metagaming, w/e to accomplish, just go out and hit stuff as well as crafting things, and this won't be a problem.

I don't know what to tell you, honestly, I've fought respawning Bandits and they're still wearing the same old worthless junk, and I one-shot them, I'm at a loss really. This is again on Master, with a few points in one-handed perks, none in archery (though I have a high skill in it), a couple in illusion, a few more in Light armor, and the rest in sneak.

Nothing like a level 10 mudcrab fighting my level 10 character.

Heh i created most than 1 char to realise that non-combat skills penalise you. I tested it with 5 characters with the highest being 35 level atm. With one character it's natural you will never realise this thing. No wonder that you think i'm wrong.
The link you posted - i already have read it carefully, The things that it says have little to do with the thing that i'm saying - on the opposite, if anything, they confirm it.

Read the below and think or test it yourself.

Level 5 character barging in everywhere - ONLY combat skills raised. = Way easier gameplay and decent sense of progression.
Level 30 character with simithing, picklocking, enchanting, alchemy raised - all for the purpose of gearing up and buffing = Much harder than the 5lvl character that did nothing.

Again, sorry but, you cannot possibly have an opinion with creating just one character.

The main concern, I think, is that ANY focus on non-combat skills will cause the character's level to increase more quickly relative to their combat skills, and by extension, the enemies' levels as well. For example, a player focusing only on combat skills and ignoring non-combat skills altogether might hit level 20 with their chosen combat skills nearly maxed out, and therefore perked-out. Another character focusing on both combat and non-combat skills gets to level 20 with much lower combat skills, despite having been working on them, since their non-combat skills have also contributed to the levels. The problem here is that the perks gained from non-combat skills don't offset the lack of gain in combat ratings and perks enough to justify them. The first player has a much easier time with enemies, by virtue of having ignored any skills outside combat skills.

The solution, I think, would be for non-combat skills to contribute less (or not at all) to leveling, or for the benefits of those skills to equal the lower relative combat skill ratings.

Morrowind had some level scaling but it wasn't noticable as much because the scaled enemies easily blended into the storyline and area.You could also run into higher level enemies early on and lower level ones still appeared fairly often as your level rose.

I don't disagree necessarily, but that could very well be their intended design, perhaps they want you to have to think a little and not just grind the crafting skills to a high level without worrying about potentially falling behind certain mobs level ranges, perhaps it's not just an ill-planned leveling system, hopefully we'll get a mod sooner rather than later for the people who it bothers. Saying that, as I said I personally haven't seen this extreme Oblivion-like level scaling in Skyrim, and no one I know who plays it has either, perhaps it's simply because I did focus some on combat skills, and therefore the changes are too negligible.


As far as running into higher level mobs, that's quite possible in Skyrim as well, if you mistakenly enter the wrong dungeon, or region with a high level range or broad level range.

I don't mind it at all. I had issues with Oblivion at first. Then I realized that there was no shame in adjusting the difficulty on the fly. This allows the player to tailor the balance of combat, pending his character type, current level and raised skills.

Once you understand that, it can become as easy, or as hard, as you want and everything in between. You can further detail the balance, by armor and weapon selection.

I don't have a problem with it.

I agree with most of what you've said, but the underlined is simply not true. Progression seems to be the most common element in RPGs since putting any kind of grind into a game seems to be license to call it an RPG now, but it's not what makes a game an RPG - that'd be the actual role playing aspect, acting as a character rather than just being a dude playing a video game, being immersed in a game world rather than just trying to clear a level, beat a boss, get a high kill/death ratio, etc.

I see a lot of people agree with Bethesda's take on an open world. For the rest of us, being able to go anywhere doesn't mean the same thing as being successful everywhere you go.

So leveling still doesn't gives a [censored] about your skillset? that's bad
But anyway, level is finite number in TES5 (when all your skills are maxed)
Why it is not possible to get rid of level scaling at all, but instead design quests and areas up to highest level?
That would cause less problems.
Taking Hard quests while being weak? NPCs that gives the quest should say something like "I'm not sure you're right person for this job"
Taking Easy quest at high level? Once again NPCs that gives quest could comment "That will be simple for you"
So that you get general idea what kind of problems (or lack of them) are ahead of you (and warned if quest is too hard)

what do you recommend?

On one hand you have the extreme where only your actual real life skill can influence how far you get. (think battletoads, tetris, r-type, contra, etc...)
On the other hand you have the extreme opposite where only your time invested matters. (think WoW, all JRPG's, etc...
Then you would have those in-between games where skill and time invested and luck all matter (Think nethack, binding of isaac, other roguelikes...)
You might like the GTA series. That game has come closest of any game I can think of to providing the difficulty curve, plus the sandbox you are asking for.

I am not exactly sure what you want in a game. either you get a game where you personally gain actual skill, or you get a game where your time invested modifies a stat sheet that says you have gained skill. Only the second one is a rpg in the traditional sense. You seem to want a combination of the two, and I do to, but it has never been done before.

Granted, If somebody ever made an RPG with a fighting mechanic like a true fighter, that would be exactly what you are asking for. But nobody has done that yet. If it ever comes I will join you in being their biggest [censored]. But that sort of thing is not "safe" for developers. Nobody has done it before. So, like Morrowind, it would be an epic, noteworthy, do-or-die move for the developer. People just don't take that sort of risk every day. Eventually, some starving studio with a lot of talent WILL take on the challenge, and succeed, but nobody in a financially stable position will take that risk, despite the fact that you are absolutely correct.
Although, if Skyrim does exceptionally well, that might put Bethesda in the position to go to Zenimax and convince them to bankroll such a gamble. But that is, imho, a longshot.

That is really funny. If you look at my post, you will see a [censored] in there. The word Bethesda chose to censor was the word that means [boy of fans]. lol

I don't mind the level scaling if it gets hard I turn down the difficulty.

RPGs had stats and levels so that players could easily process what was going on in combat on a sheet of paper. DMs would craft their scenarios to accommodate their players and/or the players would get a scenario based on their levels.

The game does that for us; as it should.

If you truly were prepared, you wouldn't have been punished. You were punished for grinding because you expected to win by merely getting better items and better stats when, in reality, that's only 1/3rd the battle. If you built your character around crafting and/or non-combat skills, then it's up to you to use those skills to your advantage. Then, there's proper execution.

Stats,
Strat,
Skill.

There's probably an imbalance in the early game so that the game wouldn't be too brutal to new players... But, judging from my own experiences, I suspect that your early success was a fluke.

They didn't take away anything from RPGs. In fact, they reinforced it.

Too bad it svcks and was the most hated feature in Oblivion.

I think they did level scaling fine. If you're weaker because you focused most of your time on non-combat skills then that's completely your fault, and you're just going to have to deal with some added difficulty while you level up your combat skills, then things should start to even out more. If you want your character to be more powerful than it is then you might just have to lower the difficulty. You're just going to have to take what the game gives you and work it around to fit your playstyle.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize the game was named "The Elder Scroll V: Play as a heavily armored Juggernaut knight or lose " Heaven forbid people want to get into magic, stealth, alchemy, speechcraft, etc. as well as all the other new things they put in the game. I want to do something other than run around with the best heavy armor I can find and the biggest war axe and play hack n' slash.

And it was fully intentional.

They wanted to move AWAY from the power levelling of skills. Cry more.

Not our fault you have svck for combat skills.

I'm not having any issues in my 20s.

The lack of proper level-scaling made Morrowind very boring at level 25+(there was some, but very minor and stopped around level 20), so I guess I'm happy with the scaling in Skyrim. Even now, at level 29 I have been handed my ass on a plater when I underestimated a Draugr Deathlord with a bow or faced 2 snow sabre cats without paying attention too my health.