I think its a good thing. It encourages you to explore and go where ever you want, and fight anything. I like it that way...

Some subtle points that many of these 1-line posts here are missing:

1) Morrowind DID use levelscaling, sometimes quite annoyingly. Never noticed fire atronachs occuring near daedric ruins around levels 6-8? Blighted animals on roads at the same levels? Golden saints in the Grazelands around levels 15-20? The good thing about Morrowind's levelscaling is that most regions still had rather predictable enemies (Ascadian Isles, for example, never offered anything harder than a kagouti, and seriously, this is how it should be; the Grazelands, though, had lots of variety). Sorry, but Morrowind's botched up balancing has nothing to do with the presence or absence of levelscaling. Morrowind got boring after level 25 apparently because Bethesda didn't expect anybody to play that far beyound level 25, or because they had to publish the game quickly, or for another reason, but this is not related to levelscaling, absolutely. (Sphagne already pointed this out, but apparently not many listened.)

2) All of the TES games from Morrowind on (probably also the first two, but I don't know) have more than enough content to allow players a lot of freedom without levelscaling. Here is my first idea about how to do this for Skyrim (but I'm just a level 15 player, so it's mostly just a guess): Make the Helgen-Riverwood-Whiterun-Falkreath area a place for levels 1-10, including some but not all caves (some caves should be significantly harder), then Markath, Ivarstead, Solitude for levels 11-20, and there is still a lot of the map I haven't seen that can fill the level 21-40 parts. Levels 41-60 should be reserved for seriously difficult caves, scripted encounters at the end of the mainquest, quest-related dream realms and the likes, and some particularly difficult places on the map (that are avoidable when you have to go from a town to another one; for example, the giant camps are such places).

3) Even if you think levelscaling is a good idea, scaling from zero is not. By scaling from zero, I mean a leveled list which, at level 1, spawns nothing, and later spawns enemies. I encountered this at Orphan Rock (first it was empty, then 4 witches spawned; quite a difficult encounter!). The player shouldn't suddenly find himself unable to walk a path he has already trodden several times!

4) Skyrim doesn't use level locking - at least not with bandits. If you come back to a bandit camp after some levelups and more than 3 days of absence (the usual respawn time...), the enemies have rescaled, whether you killed them or not. http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls_V:_Skyrim#Enemy_Leveling_System got it wrong.

5) One point being brought up is that levelscaling gives the player freedom in going whenever he wants. But there is an other side to the freedom coin: Levelscaling takes the player's freedom to raise the skills he wants. Every "wrong" skill (a skill the player won't use for fighting) puts him at disadvantage. More notably, it constantly forces me to pick only the most strategically reasonable perk when I level up. Maybe at level 25 I will be able to deviate from that, but right now I have to optimize or I risk dropping the ball. In a non-levelscaled game you would just delay your success if you pick bad perks; in Skyrim you evoke failure. I must say that the presence of some very good perks makes me indeed feel slightly stronger when leveling up (as opposed to Oblivion), but there is no real freedom for me in choosing them.

6) "Don't play on Master" is not an answer to "on Master I am getting weaker and weaker". Unbalanced is not the same as difficult. Think about it.

1 - Never played Morrowind

2 - Skyrim is mostly advertised for being an open free world, do what you want. Restricting areas to certain levels will kill the whole idea/point of the game. I, for one, love the freedom Skyrim. I'd really hate to see being stuck to a certain area just because I'm at too low level.

3 - I almost expect to encounter something higher level on a path I have been over alot of times, I don't want to cross half the world like it's a walk in the park, might as well just fast travel and skip it entirely.

4 - meh, bandits should level, why should you be the only one to progress. Maybe those bandits been through some dungeon, leveled up and found a campsite to get their deserved rest (at least thats what I like to think).

5 - There are no 'wrong' perks/skills. It makes you think over about how to choose your perks and think about your tactics in battle. It's pretty logical to me that if I get my speech or smithing up, or any other non-combat skill/perk, it'll be at the expense of combat perks/skills and I will have to adjust to be able to survive. The idea that someone is making a somewhat diplomat/crafter and then expect to crash through some camp or dungeon like a fully fledged trained warrior amazes me. It adds more realism to the game for me.

6 - I think people are getting the idea of getting weaker because Skyrim asks of you to really think over your choices, tactics and stragety. This isn't Morrowind, Fallout or Oblivion. If you master those, gratulations, very nice, but Skyrim takes it up to another level (Master *should* be bad ass right?). I find it funny that people actually complain master is too difficult and automatically blame it on level-scaling or what not. Maybe people should stop comparing Skyrim to other games or other earlier releases and bend over to take it for what it is, which is, in my honest oppinion, by far the most awesome & challenging game if have played in a very long time.

The world I live in isn't level scaled, and I don't think games should be, either. I have no problem with areas or things I can walk over and others I don't have a prayer of beating.

It's just me that don't even noticed Level Scaling? And I'm just a Pure Mage.

And if you is a Thief with Lockpicking and Pocket-something why you want to kill Bandits? Your playstyle is suited for Urban Game-Play. You put yourself in this situation and blame the game. Choices must be made.

I can't think of anything more boring than leveling up and watching the world die behind me as i go, returning to huge swathes of the map and one-shotting everything i see, there would be nothing to do and the game would lose longevity and become very linear as a result.

level scaling should be present in some form or other in my opinion, otherwise world exploration becomes largely pointless and the game ends with the story, when you spend a long time leveling a character up, it's nice to be able to go back to it and still have fun stuff to do long after the story ended.

First: many players who clocked hundreds of hours in Oblivion never used OOO even if they used tons of other mods.

Second: stuff like Alchemy and Enchanting can make any build workable, but only if they are used properly.

Third: the game will punish you for poor strategic choices based on your play style and character development. For example, if you choose to create and play a character that is focused on trading through Speech and similar skills, don't expect to go into a dungeon alone and survive. If you are a great Smith, fine, but that means you are good at making the stuff, not necessarily using it in actual combat.

Fourth: what choices do you have if you are a character such as point #3? Well, you can hire help or ask your companions to do a lot of the giving/taking damage. You can avoid most dungeons and such; after all, you do not typically see merchants delving underground. The game even has books that warn you that many Alchemists get into trouble while trying to gather ingredients.

In short, the level scaling does not appear to be the issue here, but rather people who want the game to meet their play style rather than role playing the character that they have created. You are not being punished for leveling non-combat skills; you are being punished for developing a non-combat character and then expecting to be proficient at combat. That's very realistic, actually.

Frankly, it also sounds like the OP is trying to "game the game" and isn't happy that the game is capable of countering such an approach.

This whole discussion is pointless.

If you want to play the game easy ... set it on easy. ... If you want it hard ... set it on hard.

They did a good job. I am running the game on the standard medium setting, .. and some things are easy, some things are hard. They simply made the game as such it will reflect a real world basically.

And what some people perhaps think as scaling, may sometimes just be a random event. I killed a hostile orc I encounterd just comming over a bridge, but I accidently fell to deep not much later and died (climbing up a mountain). Lucky I had a safepoint just before that bridge, ... so I went over the bridge to encounter 3 humans, instead of 1 orc. And though the Orc was hostile,... the 3 humans were actually friendly, since they were factional guards and I did not have to fight them.

So hardness may not always becaused or have to do with leveling scaling. Sometimes it is probably just random changes the games invents for you on the spot, based on some event you just have triggered.

Well Said, Well Said.

I like level scaling. The game is already easy enough.

I believe that scaling actually makes the game easier to program. You can do more with less NPC diversity. Instead of running into bigger and badder enemies its to much based of how powerful you are. Remember dragon warrior from nintendo? If you try to go to far you will know it because the foes get way to hard. If the strength of enemies is dynamic you have less programming and thinking about where you put enemies. I honestly dont think it makes the game any more enjoyable for a noob. As for the people making the game, I bet it makes it a whole lot easier to just increase enemies power with yours. IMO they should get back to making the game more realistic with cool items that are hidden that you have to really fight to get, and also trying to complete a hard quest its good to know you can try to raise you skill to get through it easier.

Exactly. It's not Planescape Torment, where you could finish the game without killing anyone, in TES you HAVE TO kill stuff. Alchemists, smiths, thieves, merchants, talkers, etc. are not good at that.

It's actually cool and a bit old-school that you can create a failed character build.

The scaling in Skyrim is much better than Oblivion, but I do think the OP has a point in regards to the relationship between non-combat skills and leveling. The fact is that a player focusing more on non-combat skills will have a harder time with the game than another player who ignores those skills. A character doing a lot of sneaking, lockpicking, etc. will quickly level while their combat skills lag behind, compared to a character who just kills stuff. So the first player ends up at a high level based mostly on skills which don't help him kill anything. This would be fine if the game were designed in such a way that this is viable, but it's not. Nearly every quest requires combat, so our hypothetical player finds himself at a massive disadvantage for having focused too much on the "wrong" skills. This is a problem due to the fact that many of these skills are integral to certain character types.

I almost think it would be better to keep level scaling as-is, but either decouple non-combat skills from the leveling process, or make them contribute less. For example, Sneak only contributes towards a level every two or three skill points, while Archery continues to contribute for each skill point.

Odd, I haven't come across a SINGLE situation where an encounter I faced previous and avoided to come back to later has been more difficult.

Skyrim has some superb yet subtle level scaling. I've been progressing just fine.

the game rewards a balanced playstyle and not grinding one gear or utility skill to insanely high levels to get overpowered gear
I quite like it
loved morrowind, everything just made sense IMO
kind of hated oblivion, felt like I was playing the stat game more than anything
this feels pretty much like morrowind in that regard though with less aggravation of accidentally going some place you're not ready for (it still happens but not as much, seems to be confined mostly to dungeons and some parts of the overworld)

ow and please stop acting like you're some allknowing RPG god who holds the absolute truth
your opinions are exactly that, your opinions and nothing more

It would still be open world; you are free to do what you want as long as you have trained enough before to be well-equipped and skilled enough. You are not forced to do any particular quest or take any particular skills to survive; you just should have done enough. Freedom doesn't mean walking into Mordor.


This is a serious immersion problem. Fast travel is supposed to be an abstraction for traveling ingame; it is not supposed to be teleportation. (Therefore, you can't fast travel when enemies are nearby or when you are over-encumbered.) When you fast travel, it is understood that your character actually makes the journey by foot, rather than simply beaming to the destination. So if you are able to fast travel from A to B, then you should also be able to fight your way from A to B, at least if you take the easiest possible route!


As I said, I'm fine with diplomatic skills not advancing me in combat. But in Skyrim they are actually throwing me back. This is a difference, and I don't think it has a reason-to-be in realism.


Actually it is very much like Fallout 3 and Oblivion (though mostly like Fallout 3) in this aspect. And that's what people are taking offense at.

Is it not the point of crafting skills to give you benefits, yes or no? If it is not, what's their actual purpose?
Let's say it's logical that when you level up crafting skills you are becoming more of a craftsman and not a warrior. If this is the case, is there any reason at all to raise them other than maybe rp? Why do they exist?

Why should i pick that lock and get that potion? Why should i forge a steel set of armor? Give me a reason! Why should i brew that concotion that will buff me if the penalty is larger than the benefit?
I think that when you raise these skills you are supposed to get some benefits. If you get penalised instead tell me one reason to why the exist.

The argument "when you raise smithing you become a smith and svck in combat" is obviously stupid if you thing about it for a minute. First because if that's the case, there is absolutely no reason to become a smith (since your forgings will seem even weaker than the rags you had at the start) and secondly if you are a balanced character and level up most skills it doesn't make sense for you to become progressively weaker. And you do get the feeling of becoming weaker since you will eventually feel the levels you got from your non-combat skills in the weapons of your enemies.

^ This.

Great thing about Morrowind, you go to the wrong place you are dead. Level scaling is for "pretty" gamers.

I've read through this thread and I want to remind everyone to be a bit more respectful of one another. Some of you are insulting ("ignorant", "really devoted fan", etc) one another about differences of opinion regarding a game. Some perspective, please, and keep things civil, lest I have to hand out warns.

...So, you are saying that you would love Cliff Racers to level scale and live longer?

How about Scamps, and Slaughterfishes?

There is no level scaling in the real world, despite the idiot mantra of everyone getting a reward for simply participating.

I think it cheapens the quality of the "real" aspects of the simulation.

This is not a medieval themed action game. This is an rpg. Levels and progression should matter. In Skyrim scaling may not be as dire as oblivion but it's still there. If you consider challenge for example fighting that bandit at level 5 and 30 on equal terms then - no comment. There are infinite ways to maintain the level of challenge without murdering the most fundamental aspect of an rpg game, which is progression. Also if you expect to kill that dragon at level 5 and consider the game being linear if it doesn't let you kill it - no comment again (i'll take heed of the moderator's warning, really what else what i say to these absolutely irrational arguments).

And if you raise non-combat skills progression turns the other way around. You become weaker (since the enemies get levels too) and the benefits you reap from them are not nearly enough to make up for it. Again - what's the reason of forging that armor since you need to raise the smithing skill (and get levels) to the point that enemies will make that armor look worse than your previous one?

Mobs in this game have level ranges, no one knows how much of them do, or how big the range is, but you will not/should not see regular bandits with glass/daedric. I think too many of you recognized level-scaling, had horrible Oblivion flashbacks, and are now panicking. Don't, it's nowhere near as bad as that, not even close, relax. Dungeons also have level ranges, when you clear one, the new enemies that will respawn will be in that level range (as far as I know), whether or not Radiant Story quests temporarily change the level range of a dungeon it sends you to is unknown to me at this time. As far as skyrim regions go, as you level and return to an area, new/stronger mobs will be roaming there now, but you'll still find your lowly wolf, or bandit running about.

For those wondering about leveled items, Artifacts aka the unique looking/enchanted weapons/armor don't level, meaning their stats will be the same at level 1 or 50. There are still some leveled items in the game, most if not all of them are quest rewards. One example of leveled items:

Mate, i described my experience thus far in earlier posts. I did the mistake of raising non-combat skills (read books, smithing, lockpicking everything etc) with my latest characters and equipped myself and instead of getting rewarded or even face the same difficulty as with my other chars (with which i just barged in and killed things) i actually got weaker. This is from level 1 to 35 in the Whiterun area mostly and taking as as an example the 5-6 bandit camps (and some other dungeons) in that area.

Bandits may not have gotten glass/daedric gear but they suddenly became hard-boiled veteran warriors, harder than before (even with my new gear/skills) and that is simply because i bothered raising non-combat skills in order to equip myself better. Bandits that i killed at lvl 5 give me almost a harder time than actual giants... I couldn't believe it myself at first but it's a fact...

If the level scaling is still bad just wait for mods.
Oblivion was pure [censored] until mods made it into a playable RPG.