You have to have some sort of level scaling in an open world game like this. Its not like WOW where each location is based on what level you are at.
If it was like that then they would not be able to say you can do anything you want at any time. Plus if there was not level scaling it would get boring because you could be way too OP

Plus if there was not, then if you picked a certain class you would always get owned. If you want to be superman in the game and piss through everyone, just turn the difficutly meter down

It would be great if there were two separate levels, one for Combat skills and the other for everything else (Craftings, Speach, Lockpick, etc). That way only your Combat level would make a difference to level scaling.

I'm sorry but I haven't found one game that builds this detailed into leveling. I highly enjoy leveling each skill to affect my total level. Its different and has yet to effect my gameplay in any way,shape, of form.

For the love of mara, quit complaining. This IS the elder scrolls. If you don't enjoy it, then take it back. If you got it in steam, oh well. If you do like it, good for you. Adjust is the word of the day.

There are rpgs that are open world - not liner and at the same time they do not have level scaling. I don't understand this new trend with level scaling. Couldn't they do in all of Skyrim monsters what they did for example the giant camps? That's a group of enemies scaled by itself and it doesn't prevent people from exploring or anything. And if the 100th bandit camp you assault at level 50 does not pose a challenge it's completely natural, rational and gives you a taste of what you have achieved so far. One hitting the occasional wolf does not offer that.

Also some people don't seem to get the point. I'll say it for 1001th time.

We are not talking about difficulty here. We are talking about how raising non-combat skills (along with combat skills) makes you progressively weaker. If these did not affect you level things would be much better.

Can't you see that there is no point in raising non-combat skills? At this point i've completed most of Skyrim (secondary quests and all) with 5 chars. Check for example:

1st char:
Dual wielding warrior, raised heavy armor, one handed, raised smithing to get better gear, enchanting to eventually put some enchants on my gear, alchemy to have potions of every kind, picklocked almost everything, read books etc (also later i raised pickpocketing to steal npc equipped weapons)

2nd char:
Dual wielding warrior raised heavy armor, one handed swords did not picklock almost nothing - only chests with high lvl loot, did not do anything else concerning skills

Char no1 got progressively weaker since lvl1 as he leveled with all these skills. He is 38 now.
Char no2 stayed at the same level of power (with some exceptions that don't scale aka rats/wolves) and beat monsters much easier than char no1 with worse gear etc. He is 12.

Conclusion:
-Non-combat skills penalise you more than they benefit you (which makes them useless, except if i miss something you don't).
-Level progression for char 1 was actually degression.
-Level progression for char 2 was felt with wolves and rats! (and probably some other critters i already forgot about).

PS: People who don't understand the issue and answer about different things, should not post at all in the future.

Seems like to me this is way to have create less mobs and put less effort into the game.

Say you have to create 100 different types of enemies.

20 for levels 1-20, 20 for 21-40, 20 for 41-60 etc.

Or you can have level scaling and just make 20, that scale with you no matter what level, so there's always enemies that are difficult everywhere.

Just like they did with armor removing legs, because its "easier to render", aka easier to run on obsolete Xbox 360 consoles.

Sounds like laziness to me and catering to consoles again like everything else

I always found it verysatisfying sneaking in to a high level area as a well prepared min/max character and still managing to beat it. Getting far better loot than what would have been normally available. Now that is not possible.

Although not as ridiculous as in OB, I find the current level scaling system to unrewarding. I am lvl 19 atm and to still be whooped by a two bandits I encountered earlier in the game is getting annoying. What is the purpose of leveling if I keep encountering the same challenge from the same enemies over and over again?

Agreed. Levelling up non-combat skills shouldn't have as big an effect on the combat. I've had the same problem- I'm having to leave off smithing, alchemy, pick-pocketing and even speechcraft for a while until I've got my combat skills up to par. It's also a problem if you pick a race that isn't suited for a particular role- say, an Imperial thief (which is what I've gone for), or a Bosmer heavy meleé expert. Your level gets higher faster than it would otherwise, simply because you're raising skills more just to get to level with what you're going after- yet your overall combat effectiveness will be lower than someone who picked the correct race. Again, like Oblivion, I'm having to play the system, and that's what I wanted to avoid.

It looks as though you are playing this role-playing game as you would some sterile, action game. You are chasing achievements instead of playing your character. I am not confident that someone talking about differences between "perfect runs" and "speed runs" is in a position to make claims about "the most fundamental thing there is in an rpg game."

You have a character, an adventurer. His world contains enemies of varying degrees of power. Regardless of scaling, it is to be expected that you will encounter these enemies, and any expectations regarding enemy strength should stop right there. Your problem is that your expectations extend to when and where those superior enemies should appear.

Yep, I agree 100%. Get to a certain level in MW and the game becomes a walkover.

I really cannot understand people that say they are having issues with leveling. I am at level 21 now and the game keeps getting easier and easier, and I am playing on Master.


Level scaling is just a bit too fast on the dragons.

I can see issues only on people that play the game with a compulsive behavior of maxing ALL the skills that they will not even use. You just need to keep in mind.. ifyou are amge.. keep your magic skills the most developed.. if you are a warrior.,.. keep your combat skills high level.

And smithign is in fact the skill groups that makes the game easier. You can build and enchant ridiculous items. If you just increase the skill and do not use it, then its your fault that you are dieing! It syour role as player to use what the skills ring you!

People keep saying this in this thread, and it's flat out wrong, there are regions, and dungeons that have high level mob ranges, if you go into a dungeon with a range of 35-40 at 20, it'll be a level 35 dungeon, i.e. mobs still 15 levels higher than you, with equivalent loot, meaning if you play it smart, get lucky, are quite skillful, you can go in and walk out with higher level gear.


Smithing may very well be the most powerful option to take in this game, higher skill means you can make higher quality versions of weapons and armor, and putting perks in means you get access to craft higher tier gear. Even at master difficulty, having a sub-optimal to very little points/perks in a combat skill, you can perform well with your overpowered gear/weapons. That's a non-combat skill if you didn't know, same goes for Enchanting, a non-combat skill that more than makes up for a lackluster combat skill, Alchemy as well though not as much as Smithing/Enchanting. All 3 are non-combat skills.

You must have not understood anything from this thread or haven't thought about the thing i'm complaining about at all.

First things first, you can't judge me for a term i used. I assure you it has nothing to do with "powerleveling" practices. They were however the best i found, because in most rpgs i play i start a char to get to know the game a little and then start another one to play normally, find all secrets etc - that's why i called it "perfect" in "...

You new generation rpg players treat rpg games like sterile, actions games, not me! This level scaling trend takes away progression, immersion... everything. How am i supposed to "blend in" with my character when the regular run down bandit has turned to a legendary warrior all of a sudden? How am i supposed to reap the benefits of my adventures if everything scales as i do?

But in the end, you fail to realise the most critical thing of all. Secondary skills are useless. Raising them penalises you more than the benefits you get. That's what i've seen in my 5 characters until now. And that's the main problem of scaling. Don't go making assumptions about "my expectations" or whatever you think i mean, without reading this thoroughly.

Also i'm not even sure that the thing with the regions and certain mobs which are thought were unscalable is a fact. I mean i'm level 15 (with the combat skills character) i finished labyrinthian and ice trolls are relatively easy for him. And that's on master difficulty.

if you clear a dungeon at low level, it doesnt mean its locked to that level for the rest of the game. if you just enter a dungeon or find it at certain level and dont come back for awhile it will be at that level you founded it.

and after you have cleared it, it will reset and there will be dudes of your level when they respawn.

Level Scaling svcks period. Don't use the excuse that its too easy ir its neccesary for an open world, because its not. Its an rpg. That meabs when I level, the enemeys should not level with me.

I have already been thinking a lot about this as I use the early levels to increase Smithing and Alchemy, etc. However, your not considering how money plays into it. Non-combat skills can help you earn money--especially at Master levels. Money, makes the game easier. Not saying it's better than having a high offense and defense rating but it isn't exactly a two dimensional comparison. Also, "easier/harder" are subjective terms. Owning a house/horse may not make it easier to kill a Troll but it makes it easier to play the game and makes the game more fun. This also has to be considered when choosing combat/non-combat skills.

No no mate, my bad, i meant with 2 different characters. One 5 and other 21. Same build and all - the 21 had raised other skills except combat and was eqquiped accordingly.


I agree to an extend but still i should not get beaten easier by the same enemies since i decided to buy a house!

I hope THIS is exactly how the game is designed as it makes more sense and does more justice.

Dear god some ppl have no idea how the system works in Skyrim, the game does not just level scale, a difficulty modifier is applied to npc's depending on which area you are in.

You are not going to have impossible to kill rats just because you levelled up, however, you are never going to out level all the content, or walk over the hardest mobs in game. This is not a linear rpg ala Bioware, where you rarely if ever return to an area; the world is designed so that you can continue to play long after the main quest arc is done; out levelling everything in game would make that rather pointless.

If the CK is out, there will be mods against lvl scaling. We just have to wait.

For the causal gamer its easier to play a game with lvl scaling. And there are more causal gamers, so thats why there is lvl scaling. Games like Gothic 1-2 showed that games without lvl scaling could be godlike. But its not easy to make games like these.

not sure about the scaling. but I think this game is too easy :/ even on master difficulty. Only enemies i see as a challenge are the trolls and some Bandit leaders and bosses. But other than its pretty damn easy. Maybe block es OP? XD im lv 27

Complete nonsense, current ease of the game aside, a game is designed with level scaling for people who want to continue with the game world long after the main quest arc is finished, but don't want a walk in the park; quite the opposite of a casual who will play, finish the arc, and move on. Level scaling ensures there is always a challenge somewhere, you cannot glitch your way to level cap and walk over everything in game.

Well, there are pros and cons to this.

I share your feelings about it, it's something I could do without. Part of the excitement of an open world sandbox, is its unpredictability. You can devastate a dungeon, killing every living thing in it with only one fireball, or you can be running away like a little girl from a big scary monster. You have to keep on your toes all the time and you feel rewarded when you grow in power. It's a tricky thing though because you need the difficulty to scale somehow, to keep things interesting, but you can't make that obvious.

On the other hand, it's very hard to control the gamer's experience without this dynamic scaling. Tons of more testing would be needed to avoid locking down areas or there would be a lot of angry gamers, that will have really frustrating experiences because they were unlucky in the places they chose to explore. Specially mainstream gamers that are looking for a more straightforward and controlled experience.

Hopefully, just like Oblivion, there will be mods for that.

O.P.

whilst i don't entirely agree with you, i do think some of your points are valid

have i just used George Orwell's doublethink??