lol poor Bethesda. It seems they can't please everybody with their combat system. In Oblivion, destruction magic was OP as hell, and warrior classes were crap compared to ultra powerful mages. Now from what I read so far, in Skyrim it is the opposite. Mages seem like pansies whose Destruction magic is inferior to a sword, while warriors wreck everything. However, none of this matters to me, my char is an assassin.

If what you're describing is actually possible, then I concede the point. I never imagined such a thing was possible. (whoops)

L2Reddit: http://i.imgur.com/JYyWG.jpg
Melee is the new 100% chameleon.

Hmm. I thought they actually hard capped magic resistance at 85%. Oh well.

Yes, and the complaint is that the cap on melee damage is much, much higher than the cap on spell damage.

Uhhh....this is OBVIOUSLY wrong. Mages can ALSO upgrade to more powerful spells. So, no, it's not true that mages can ONLY increase the rate of spell casting.

What have you been smoking?

Gary, you are WRONG.

The numbers have already been posted...

The difference in damage that a sword and destruction can do is ridiculous. Seriously, a 1-hander can do a few thousand damage EACH HIT! And, these are not even power attacks. Even a non maxed 1-hander can easily do 500 damage.

Technically enchanting exploits also allow you to get 0 magicka cost for a skill. So, yeah.

So you're suggesting that leveling up and unlocking new spells; along with the incredibly useless reduced magica cost is a viable form of damage scaling? Wrong.

The problem is that once you've unlocked the highest destruction spells (which can be obtained around half the max level) they never get any better. So if learn the master spells at level 40, their damage remains the same for the rest of the game, while enemies continue to get stronger. However, one hand will continue to strengthen all the way to level 70 or whatever you cap out at.

The magica reduction is useless. So I can cast more spells; too bad I'll be dead before I can fire off more then one.

Read this:
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1266212-2469-armor-3199-damage-using-smithing-alchemy-enchanting-only-31-perks/

Now, show me a link with FACTS where any destruction spell can do any where near that kind of damage.

Do not insult my intelligence with nonsense and then ask me what I have been smoking...

In real life I have a dual phd in quantum physics and aeronautical engineering. I'm currently dating
Jenna Jameson, and I bribe the police every time they pull me over for driving 200 mph in my diamond studded bugatti.

Welcome to the internet, where you can claim to be anything where not a single shred of proof is required.

Stop posting anecdotal evidence, and actually make some substantial posts. Weapons and armor can be increased greatly using
crafting, enchanting, and skills. Harder hitting spells can be found and purchased. Spells can also be buffed using enchanting
and alchemy.

Problem? Or are you still trying to balance the game like its a pvp game?

except your damage still svcks
with enchanting exploits I can hit almost as hard as a warrior without enhancements.

Conveniently, no one mentions alchemy in these debates, but I do agree that no enhancement puts these spells purely on the damage side of melee. Do we ever think maybe mages aren't supposed to be able to have it super easy this time around? I am hearing less magicka is not relevant to the argument. It is. Ok, yes, it will take you longer to kill things than a warrior or assasin. And? You have 2 pets, you have a companion: Let's digress here. So what if companions scale from weapons and all that good stuff. Really now. This game, in higher difficulty and normal, is scaled around companions assisting you. You can have a dog, a companion, and 2 summons with 100 conjuration. That's 5 people. That's 5 targets. That's 5 sources of damage, or healing, or other minions depending on your summons. Are we ignoring the fact mages get these things? Are we ignoring Dremora (?) Lords and the fact they have armor and swords? I'm not. Mages have it good. They can heal, they can manipulate, they can summon, they can deal fairly large amounts of damage without being in the fray. Is this not satisfactory? As a mage, does your flame spell also need to make you feel like you are spitting swords of enchanted 100 smithing warriors at people? If it does, toss down the robes. Being a mage is about having the power, not having the strength.

Whew. Anyway, less magicka=more spells=youareamageyoudomorethandealdamageandblockdealwithitgoplay.



^Also, this. People really don't care.

mods, please lock this thread. People are starting to insult those who don't play their style of mage, and it's getting out of hand.

What you're saying now is that the cap on melee damage is much higher than the cap on magic damage, which is likely true. I never disputed that point.

What you said before -- see my previous quote -- is that a mage can ONLY improve his combat performance by increasing his rate of spell casting. I said this was obviously wrong, because it is. Clearly a mage can also become a better fighter by improving the quality of his spells (until you reach the best ones.) So your reply doesn't disprove anything I say -- it's not even relevant to the point I was making.

The point is...it shouldn't be drastically harder to play a mage then any other playthrough. That goes against both lore and previous Elder Scroll games. It's LITERALLY impossible to survive as a pure mage past level 50.

err wasn't that the problem with marksmanship in OB? stop argueing for the sake of argueing

im level 18 and i one hit kill everything with my dual mace and sword (cept giants, trolls, bandit/ druag leaders ) AND i am focusing equally on archery

But the lack of any need for stamina also results in "infinite ammo" for melee attacks. Besides, what's the point in "infinite ammo" if your bullets deal 1/100th of the damage of the other guy's?

I'm not reading it's impossible to survive, I'm reading my damage isn't on par with their damage. Less magicka=more spells for longer fights=more spells to heal with=more spells to summon targets with=more spells to aid my companion. Frost spells freeze things at low levels of health, Lightning kills, Fire fears. You can also do these things with illusion spells.

And yes, the fact is you are not going to be as powerful as anyone extremely powerful in the lore. This is a game, that is lore. One goes into the other.

Melee has to be exploited to get the insane damage from enchants/potions. Take that out of the picture and without power attacks the hits aren't what people seem to think they are in these forums. Besides it's not like this is a multiplayer game, there will always be weak builds, exploits and op builds. Question is does magic work to beat the game with?

Conveniently, you ignore that melee can have just have as many companions plus virtual immunity to magic,+1-2 from potions, +1-2 sources of damage from poisons, +1-2 to weapon enchantments, +multiply damage based on melee based dragon shouts.

Oh hey for completely missing the point : Destruction does not cause destruction; *neither does restoration but who cares about that right?*

From wikipedia:
"In mathematics, a rate is a ratio between two measurements, often with different units.[1] If the unit or quantity in respect of which something is changing is not specified, usually the rate is per unit time. However, a rate of change can be specified per unit time, or per unit of length or mass or another quantity. The most common type of rate is "per unit time", such as speed, heart rate and flux. Rates that have a non-time denominator include exchange rates, literacy rates and electric flux."

Sorry gary, once again you are wrong.

All a mage can do is cast a wet noodle spell more. The "rate" is still the same. They do not come faster or do more damage each time. Once you are at 100 destruction that is it.

Melee can still increase their damage tremendously once they are at 100 in their respective tree. They can enchant and smith it into ridiculous amounts.

The point of this thread and the many others is that destruction svcks as a damage tree, and ALL of the numbers show this fact.

i read right through this thread...

i think you missed a point.
rule number 1 with a console game....

make it simple,.take the thinking out of the game.

i tried a few times to play this game like it was a pc game,but its not possible until its modded to a pc game standard.

GARY THE STRONGEST SPELLS ARENT STRONG. THATS THE PROBLEM BUD.

I wasn't arguing that melee wasn't broken, but rather that things like broken enchanting/alchemy systems shouldn't be taken into account.

Regardless, warriors enchanting up their gear and maxing out smithing will still bring in single attacks doing 150-160 damage, which I still think is fairly ridiculous compared to destruction.


Btw, the main argument here is not that mages are completely unplayable. It's rather that, the destruction school which many, many people favor, is not nearly as effective as it should be past level 40 or so.

Honestly? I hope they get the CK out soon so I or someone else can just fix it.

This isn't related to Skyrim, but since you brought up LoL, I have to say your point is horrible.

Ryze is the tankiest mage in the game. The way he gets more damage is he builds mana items, which also have heavy tank stats. To say Ryze dies instantly tells me you either haven't touched the game in a year since the patch changed him, or you are a terrible player that builds him AP.

Anyway, that completely ruins your example that mages are underpowered. Your other points have more or less validity to them.