The imperials on the brink of collapse, a good part of tamreil is on the precipice of a dark age it seems.

The notion of a terribad "Dark Age" during/ following the Roman empire's decline is fiction. Historians don't use these terms anymore, but apparently they survive in popular consciousness.

There is a prophecy, though, that Tamriel is entering a "season of war unending," so they're in for a rough time I think.

What about it? An opinion article on a freely editable wiki is not really proof. The empire crushed the entirety of the cyrodiil invasion force and the hammerfell invasion force drove out the thalmor there on their own. The thalmor didn't have overwhelming forces, even the imperial scribe that writes the great war acknowledges that the dominion was weaker.

Someone in this topic said that Bear of Markarth book is bs because it was written by an Imperial. Well?? This can be much the same. As far as we know the Imperial bookwriters might been lying about the Great Victory to not show Empire's weakness.

The Empire won the Battle of the Red Ring, destroyed almost all Dominion forces and then what, just surredered? There must be something more about it then You all Ulfric lovers think.

Historians may not use those words anymore but there is no doubt that technological progress took a step backwards for almost a thousand years after the collapse of the Roman Empire. How many aqueducts did the medieval Europeans build?

Someone in this topic said that Bear of Markarth book is bs because it was written by an Imperial. Well?? This can be much the same. As far as we know the Imperial bookwriters might been lying about the Great Victory to not show Empire's weakness.

The Empire won the Battle of the Red Ring, destroyed almost all Dominion forces and then what, just surredered? There must be something more about it then You all Ulfric lovers think.

The notion of a terribad "Dark Age" during/ following the Roman empire's decline is fiction. Historians don't use these terms anymore, but apparently they survive in popular consciousness.

There is a prophecy, though, that Tamriel is entering a "season of war unending," so they're in for a rough time I think.

Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more then half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eight during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year. Titus II knew that there would be no better time to negotiate peace and late in 4E 175 the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion signed the White-Gold Concordat, ending the Great War.

The terms were harsh, but Titus II believed that it was necessary to secure peace and give the Empire a chance to regain its strength. The two most controversial term of the Concordate were the banning of the worship of Talos and the cession of a large section of southern Hammerfell (most of what was already occupied by Aldmeri forces). Critics have pointed out that the Concordat is almost identical to the ultimatum the Emperor rejected five years earlier. However there is a great difference between agreeing to such terms under the mere threat of war, and agreeing to them at the end of a long and destructive war. No part of the Empire would have accepted these terms in 4E 171, dictated by the Thalmor at swords-point. Titus II would have faced civil war. By 4E 175, most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price.

I was sticking to the topic and game you had to say the dark ages of europe is fiction. Ive seen it all in these forums. I dont want to get into a long drawn out debate with you about if the dark ages happened but I will simple say the term dark ages describing a time period from about the year 600-900/1000 to me fits well from what I know.

This is all in favor of the Empire anyway.

Yes, there is plenty of doubt. The Romans were not all that technologically progressive themselves. They were good at robbing other people's innovations. The Gauls were better smiths than them and the Vikings were better sailors than them. Meanwhile medieval Europe had its own advances suited to its own needs. Not many places required the copious water consumption in a dry environment as Rome did. Think about it for half a tick and this should be obvious. Medieval Europe, the home of the great cathedrals, was ignorant of building technology?

Actually it is not in favor of the Empire. They won. They crushed the Dominion. Then they surrendered. Imagine if it were 1944, and the Soviet Army had just driven the last, pitiful remnant of the Wermacht from Russian soil, and Stalin then surrendered? That is what the Empire did. They won. If they were beat up, they were not compelled to invade Valenwood, Elsweyr, or Summerset. They could have just sat right where they were and licked their wounds. And still worshiped Talos, and kept Hammerfell in the Empire. They simply did not need to sign the White Gold Concordant at all. They had peace already. That is what you get after you kill everyone who invades your country. If the Dominion attacked again, then all for the better. The Empire could just send them off in the usual way. A few more elvish victories like the Great War will leave no Altmer left in the world.

Interesting that you would bring up Catholic cathedrals, with their flying buttresses, as an example of medieval technology. However, let's go back to the aqueduct for a moment. You don't need to live in an arid environment to appreciate the advantages of running water. One need look no further than the toilet. Show me one piece of evidence medieval Europeans used running water to carry away their feces (the way the Romans did) and I will fall down on my knees and rejoice in the enlightenment of medieval society.

What part of not in shape to continue the war and exhausted and decimated didn't You understand? And as far as I know we don't have any information about the remaining Dominion forces in other provinces.

Anyway no point in arguing here. The truth out there, easy to read and understand. Trying to convince anyone is a waste of time.

The Romans didn't invent the toilet.

Just google "Dark Ages not used anymore" and you'll find plenty to read.

I'm not going to derail the topic further. Suffice to say that apart from Romanist [very devoted fans] and people who don't know any better, the idea of western Europe descending into some blighted pit of ignorance and suffering because they didn't have the Romans around to enslave them run things for them is no longer accepted by credible historians.

Yes, there is plenty of doubt. The Romans were not all that technologically progressive themselves. They had slaves which hampered innovation in some areas. They were good at robbing other people's innovations. Some early etruscan & greek knollage, not everything. The Gauls were better smiths What do you mean, they cold forged, made carbon steel? (if your talking about swords, the Hispanic celt sword was likely the best.) When as any one herd of gauls making life like bronze statues?? than them and the Vikings were better sailors than them. Il agree better navigators, but a roman Quinquereme would destroy a viking ship any day. Meanwhile medieval Europe had its own advances suited to its own needs. What advances, stirrups for horses maybe which they borrowed. Lawless, destitue, constant wars. Not many places required the copious water consumption in a dry environment as Rome did. Rome is built on and next to the tiber river, londen and paris hardly broke 10000 for a population in the year 1000, rome and constantinople hand 1000000 in there height, plentyfull acesses to fresh water played a large part. Think about it for half a tick and this should be obvious. Medieval Europe, the home of the great cathedrals, was ignorant of building technology?

What part of "Hammerfell fought on alone and pushed the dominion out of hammerfell" didn't you understand? You're being extremely selective and ignoring everything that counters your statement. Even if the same book author says you're wrong.

In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left southern Hammerfell devastated. The Redguards say that this proves that they White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire. The truth of that assertion can, of course, never be known. But the Redguards should not forget the great sacrifice of Imperial blood - Breton, Nord and Cyrodilic - at the Battle of Red Ring that weakened the Dominion enough to allow the eventual Second Treaty of Stros M'kai in 4E 180 and the withdrawal of the Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell.

You are selective also.
Maybe the Titus II made a mistake, we can't know for sure. He was a human and made a human decision that he tought was the best at a time for his people.

Does putting something in green text make it more accurate? The source of the change in thinking is not nationalism but historians using actual sources versus parroting the classicist fetishism of the Renaissance.

And once again, the Roman empire is only very loose inspiration for the Septim empire. There is stuff in the lore (like The Argonian Account) which indicates the empire held provinces back by imposing foreign systems on them. In this case, I see the empire dragging humanity down with them because they're hanging on to an old political model that no longer has its heart- literally.

Yes, but most are being radicalized by how they are threated by the empire/the nords. In the city you here young people are running off almost every day to join the Forsworn, they are doing this because their land has been taken away from them. I'm not going to defend their radical behavior as it is now, but most of their terrible acts is obviously caused by how their people have been threated through the ages.

Opened a second thread to this one:

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1366279-who-do-you-like-more-ulfric-of-tullius-part-2/