Yes, because screaming and running makes your story belivable. My loyal imperial subject Aventus Vendicci would at the very least have used his last words to honor the emperor. It's a weak point in regard to the roleplaying.

A "unique occurrance"? What are you guys talking about? It was Tullius's order that caused them to go to Helgen and execute everyone without trial, either that or an order from someone above Tullius. Either way it was an order from an Imperial. These guys are solders. Giving and following orders is all they know.

Some Imperial, either Tullius or someone above him ordered the carriage to go to Helgen and execute everyone. Don't tell me that was a "unique occurrence." It was an order given by an Imperial.

I don't quite get what you're trying to say here, how does the order being given by an imperial officer(or the emperor himself) in any wy contradict that it was a uniqie occurance? They had captured the leader of the rebellion and many of his top officers and were about to execute them, that's a pretty unique occurance. We don't even know what these orders were. And if the original order/plan was to take them back to the imperial city then Tullius would probably not have the authority to retract official orders himself, as you said, following orders is all they know. So maybe none of these people had the option to save you, even if they wanted to, now that is actually to their favor, morally anyways.

Sorry but you have not convinced me. Tullius was there when it happened and I did not see him intervening in the executions in any way. Tullius knew full well that people were being executed without trial -- that was happening under his order. And yes, the Captain was under Tullius's command so he is responsible for everything she does. The guy in charge is always responsible, especially when he is there watching it all go down.

The fact that Tullius did not run away and saved the townsfolk may mean he is not a coward, but it does not mean that I will forgive him or his corrupt Empire. Sorry, but putting my head on a block is not something I can forgive.

"To the last, I will grapple with thee... from Hell's heart, I stab at thee! For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee!" That's what I think of Tullius and his Imperial Legion.

EDIT: I don't understand how you can be so forgiving of someone who put your head on a block without any apparant good reason for doing so. I am just not that forgiving when it comes to stuff like that.

Some Imperial officer or politician gave the order to kill everyone without trial. I will kill all Imperial officers and politicians and let the Gods sort them out. That's the price the Empire pays for putting the Dragonborn's head on the block.

He had every reason to kill you. You were caught along with Stormcloak soldiers. He was killing rebels who were a direct risk to the empire and Skyrim's security. Why would he intervene? Had he any reason to suspect that you were innocent? The order to kill Ulfric and his generals on the spot would most likely have saved countless lives and more or less destroyed the rebellion. As for as we know you never even tried to claim your innocence. Again, why on earth would he not think you to be in league with the people you were caught with?



This is the reason why you Khajiits aren't allowed into the cities. You lack any form of reason and are all high on moon sugar and skooma.

Tullius is a d bag so I'll go with ulfric

Tullius was never informed that their was an extra prisoner, and he was too busy keeping an eye on Ulfric to notice you. At this point, a trial would be a mere formality and constraints brought on by the aforementioned cirumstances (the Thalmor) would have rendered such an action extremely unwise. Tullius also would have been unable to observe the actions of all of his officers at the time, barring a horrific mutation that would grant him multiple eyes. Since Tullius is not a hideous abomination, it would be the captain's responsibility to act with her best judgement and the Empire's interests.
Well, you didn't exactly have a solid case. Between the lack of an alibi and being found with the rebels, you were pretty screwed trial or no trial. And Tullius' nor the Legion's actions at Helgen were not the result of a corrupted beauracracy, but the result of multiple parties' conflicting ideas and a very small window in which they may realize them. Tullius only had so much time in which he would be able to claim victory, the Thalmor had the same time to stop him, and Ulfric had only the faintest idea of who would act first. You can forgive them for being so rash in their decisions.
That is all well and good, but now you're dead. What is the point of escaping the block only to be put back on it for something as petty as revenge?

It is quite a coincidence that you happend to use that quote, by the way.
It is not such an injustice when they did have a reason. Was it good? Obviously to you it wasn't, they were going to kill you. But to them and others, it was the most sensible thing to do.
Igmund gave Ulfric the order to take back Markarth from the Forsworn. Do you blame Ulfric for working for Igmund and demanding Talos worship, do you blame the Forsworn for capturing Markarth and killing Igmund's father, or do you blame Igmund for giving Ulfric the order and the ensuing executions? Or are they all guilty to some degree?

Here's a shocking revelation: In non-contemporary times, generals and high-ranking officers did actually fight with their men. Napoleon, Caesar, Alexander the Great, the list is extremely long. From what I gather Ulfric and his men were ambushed and caught by Imperials, that shows that Ulfric atleast fights, which is more than I can say for Tullius. We also know Ulfric fought in the Great War. We know he's a brilliant general, but he might not necessarily have a lot of combat experience. He clearly wasn't leading any armies during the Great War.

It's not really negotiating when you're offering a treaty that has the same [unnegotiated] terms as an ultimatum that was given a few years before.

Better as in more complex? Ulfric is clearly more complex. Now ask me why being more complex isn't better.

Tulius does things by the book while Ulfric is spontaneous. I'm going with neither.

Um, you do know that the Forsworn are Daedra worshippers, right? Daedra worshipping requires human sacrafices, Forsworn also do some other abnormal stuff, like making deals with Hagravens and witches. The Forsworn are radicals, man women or child, there's no one they don't consider an enemy. Although not all the natives are Forsworn, but the Forsworn are the ones who took Markarth from the Empire.

Ulfric never fought during the Legion ambush because he did not fight in the first place. He and his men laid down their arms and were captured by the Imperials. Hadvar himself tells you this, and is just as surprised at the outcome as anyone especially since Ulfric was known for his whole 'never surrender' attitude.

And Tullius himself led the charge on Windhelm at the end of the civil war. Where was Ulfric at this time? In the keep with Galmar. Even when Tullius, Rikke, and the newly made Legate barge in, Galmar attacks first while Ulfric watches on the Throne.
Let's take a quick look at the terms of the Concordat that we do know, and their consequences:
-The Empire cedes Hammerfell to the Dominion. (The Thalmor later made a treaty with Hammerfell and pulled out.)
-The Empire bans the worship of Talos. (It took the Thalmor twenty years before they realized the Empire was not enforcing the ban.)
-The Dominion will pull out of the Empire and its provinces. (This only allowed the Empire to repair its infrastructure and rebuild its armies.)

So Hammerfell is no longer part of the Empire, but it was in no shape to fight at the time. Even better, it is not part of the Dominion and they know who to fight when war breaks out again.

The Talos ban was engineered with spreading dissent in mind, but so far it has only brought about the civil war, which the Empire may put down easily or became a greater threat to the Thalmor depending on who you follow. One could argue that it allows the Thalmor to spy on the Empire, but that would happen even with no treaty. If they are spying, then atleast they are in plain sight.

And the peace guaranteed by the concordant will not last forever, and everyone knows this. Thirty years is enought time for humans to lick their wounds, even with the state Cyrodill was left in. But the elves, even with their cities intact, cannot hope to muster enough forces unless they call upon the aid of their provinces, which will yield trivial amounts of troops at best.

So you may say that the terms were still the same, but that never really mattered. What mattered was that the Empire struck the Dominion a mortal wound at Red Ring, one that will affect them into the next war.

Actually, according to Ralof, there was fighting. Ulfric gave his men the order to stop fighting. Also, I can't remember Hadvar's dialogue, but I'm pretty sure that the Empire taking Ulfric to Cyrodiil was a suspicion of Ralof - "...parade us in front of the Emperor."


By the way, you left some key parts of the Concordat out.

- The permanent disbandment of the Blades; the Empire's only spy network.
- The Thalmor are allowed to freely move throughout the Empire.

While there are no Aldmeri Armies occupying Cyrodiil, they Dominion still has Thalmor spies, which are one of their greatest assets. The whole reason the Emperor surrendered is because the Thalmor killed all the Blades in Alinor. The Empire didn't have sufficient intelligence to know if they could keep fighting the war. The Concordat may be buying time, but not negotiating a new treaty still puts the Empire at certain disadvantages.

If I were Mede:

-All of Hammerfell remains part of the Empire (this way we won't lose a critical ally)
-Reestablishment of the Blades, or a new organization (this way our spies will be at an equal playing field).
-Diplomatic relations established between Alinor and the Empire.

Note that the WGC was signed right after Red Ring, the Aldmeri Dominion clearly feared the Empire (for underestimating them) at that point.

I have to question your thinking on one part though. 25 years is enough, and if the Empire is ready, then why not just let Skyrim secede? Or better yet, send diplomats to Windhelm and tell Ulfric that the Empire is planning on attacking the Aldmeri Dominion and abolishing the WGC very soon? Clearly the Empire still wants to bide their time, and the Stormcloaks would fight sooner rather than later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RN5BGueTNUc&feature=relmfu nuf said :S

That's a hilarious video. Hail Ulfric. (but why oh why didn't Bethesda record Vlad doing the Fus Ro Dah?)

Someone said Tullius has more of a character arc, but Ulfric has a much fuller back story.

True, but that doesn't change the fact that he's a stagnant character by the time you meet him. The story of Ulfric Stormcloak would have been great to see if it was actually in the game. You'd get to see a loyal soldier get repeatedly screwed over until he finally decides to rebel. It'd probably be enough to make me side with him. But as it stands, you hear about this character's life before you meet him, but no matter what happens throughout the course of the game, he's the same person he was when you meet him on the wagon to the chopping block, and that makes the Ulfric Stormcloak that exists Pre-Skyrim much more interesting than the one you meet over the course of the game's storyline.

He's still tons more interesting than Tullius. IMO.

You missunderstood. It was not a part of my question, only of my reasoning for who I like more.

Personally did not like either of them, and would have preferred a third option, of giving them the finger and destroying both organizations.

Ulfric Stormcloak. He has an amazing voice actor he make's the character so awesome an unique.

Tullius, like a lot of others, I dont really like either of them that much, but he at least has morals.

For those who want proof of Ulfric's racism and power-driven goals.

• Listen to the conversations between him and galmar, in one of them he rants about the dunmer and argonians
  
• If you the guy who replaces him (didnt really think this is a spoiler as it is obvious) talks about how he needs to repair the damage done by Ulfric's prejudice towards the non-nords
  
• Speak to a lot of the original jarls (including a couple of stormcloak ones) and they will say that Ulfric is only in it for the power

Overall I support the imperials anyway, although I may be a little biased as Oblivion was my first TES game and so I feel a little bit of allegiance to Cyrodil

I agree with you completely. Tullius is reponsible for the captain, and her actions. And by not stopping the dragonborn's execution, I consider it as he wants me dead too. And we can't have that now, can we?

theyre both jackasses

uflric is a racist moron who just wants power

tullius is a spineless clown who doesnt give a [censored] about the area hes in


this is why i always avoided the civil war, and maybe because its a boring questline aswel