Mmm its funny, I have yet to get examples of ulfric being a racist or being power hungry.

Also I find the whole high king situation very hypocritical. For one, ulfric challnged him to a duel, if the high king won would people be spouting hes a murderer? As far as the thuum, my God the high king musta been an idiot if he didnt know ulfric could shout and the last I heard the nords didnt cknsider the thuum to be magic but a weapon.

Also u ever wonder why imperial civians never say anything about a duel when they talk about ulfric shouting? U wanna know why? Because the empire didnt let them know that part. U wanna know why? Because a majority of the civiands wouldnt have considered it a crime, hell when the mans being beheaded the people in the crowd didnt even truely believe that iy was a duel. They just know their high king got shouted apart.

Say what u will bout ulfric, at least hes straight forward and hes not racist. If hes power hungry well its because he needs power to change skyrim into a better skyrim. Basically u could Tiber septim power hungry because he wanted all the countrys united and went out and took them over to change things.
The empire? Bah theres to much propaganda and not enough straight answers. Their very good at lying to downplay their faults and make people side with them. At least with the stormcloaks arent in denial, they wear their faults and strenghts out and are proud of them at least with ulfric u know what ur getting and thats a free skyrim that can be free to rule herself and a [censored] bloody war Withe thalmor. Hell theyre preparing to do the world a favor and atk them in their own island. And u know what? They dont care if they lose because even if they lose the thalmlr will remember the brutality and the asswhupping they would be getting. Hell nords are happy to go out with the enemys blood on their blade.

And me personally, id rather join up with that than wait around while the cancer gets worse or waiting on a miracle to save them from their predictament all the while being lied or downplayed to.

The quest progression is exactly the same. You're sent on a test for both Stormcloaks and imperials, whether they know you're Dragonborn or not.

Why do people miss the fact that it's a civil war? It's not Empire vs Skyrim, it's (Empire + Nord) vs Nord.

And Ulfric has done nothing to make me believe he's a competent battlefield commander; given that the only reason's he's still alive is because of Alduin.

The only reason the Empire's even around is because of Decianus disobeying Mede II. And even then, its consequences were completely unintentional.

Just travelled to Windhelm to get the exact quote:
"As you can see there are much that requires my attention, if you're inclined to gab there are some nice prison guards you may like to meet."

As for the Markarth incident it simply reflects worse on Ulfric because he's the one who claims to be fighting tyranny.

"Tyranny"

Definition: Deposing a group that kills everyone that doesn't worship their gods.

If you're going there without any reason, he probably figures you're spying. But I agree Ulfric isn't a muffins and tea kind of person. He at least never tries to cut your head off for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

He's fighting for Nord rule of Skyrim, as the imperials are fighting for imperial control of Skyrim. Both of them intend to hold the Reach. There's no difference.

I was on imperial side till I met Ulfric who is 10 times more cool
He is very respectful unlike Tullius

Is that referring to the Forsworn? That would rather fit what Ulfric/Thalmor/Empire was/are doing. The Forsworn were rather pushed towards their current position, and as far as I've gathered it's more about them being forced out of their own land than a "kill the infidels" motive. In fact I don't think I've ever heard them talk down on other religion what so ever, they simply want their land back. They are merciless killers and far from good guys at this point, much like modern terrorist organizations, but it's easy to sympathize with what made them this way. And the definition of tyranny is much bigger than that.

Note that I don't believe I've read any of the in-game books on the Forsworn, so perhaps I've missed some vital aspect of their backstory.

This is reason enough for me. The only reason I was not executed was because a Dragon intervened (I always feel bad killing Dragons by the way, since we share the same blood and a Dragon saved my life).

But back to the point, lots of people excuse Tullius's conduct because he is just a bureaucrat following orders of the Emperor. But, the Emperor was not in Helgen on a certain day when Tullius's captain put a certain PC of uncertain guilt on the headsman's block. That decision was made on the spot by Tullius's captain with Tullius's tacit approval.

Maybe its the Dragon blood that flows through my veins that makes me so vengeful, but I just do not understand how so many folks here can so easily forgive something like that. If someone was really about to cut your head off without any sort of trial and for no apparant good reason, would you really be so quick to jump on their bandwagon after an outside force saved your bacon at the last possible moment?

I don't really like either of them, but I'm going to have to give it up to Tullius on this. Mostly because he goes through a character arc. When you meet him, he's an arrogant man in a foreign land, completely ignorant of its culture. But in time he comes to understand the land and its people a bit more and shows he's gained respect for it.

Ulfric doesn't change at all throughout the course of the civil war if you're on the Stormcloak side.

Ulfric Stormcloak. He hates the Imperial Legion. So do I. I do not take kindly to people who want me killed.

They used to be known as Reachmen in TES lore. High Rock hated them when they were still in their territory, Skyrim hated them when in theirs. They practiced a type of hedge wizardry magic that even the bretons found detestable. They would waylay travellers and sacrifice them to daedra. They are not a nice group of people.

Perhaps a poll would be a good idea for this thread?

Seeing that Tullius was leading the people who tried to lop my dome off at the start of the game - and Ulfric was not - that instantly makes me prefer Ulfric. Call me old-fashioned, but when folks try to kill me, I really take it personal. Dying is just a lousy way to start the day. It just all goes downhill from there.

Even that aside though, I go with Ulfric.

He is fighting for his people's right to self-determination.

He is a lot more laid back than Tullius. You can walk right up to Ulfric and talk to him. He says you are either very courageous, or very foolish to do so. But he does not get mad at you either.

He gave up living the safe, sequestered life of a Greybeard because the real world needed him. It is easy to sit in a monastery and ignore all the troubles of the world. It is something else to get involved and sacrifice to make a change.

He is no stranger to sacrifice. He has been tortured and imprisoned for fighting for his beliefs. He is willing to put it all on the line for what he believes in.

Finally, he was voiced by Vladimir Kulich (Beowulf from the 13th Warrior), who is way cooler then Colonel Tigh.

I like the general better even though he's no where near as interesting as Ulfric.

My reason being when it comes to Ulfric everyone seems to overlook he's a mass murderer/child killer.

Proof comes from the "Markarth incident"

"Reports vary, but it is said that every official who worked for the Reachmen was killed, even after they had surrendered. Native women were tortured to give up names of Reachmen fighters who had fled the city. Anyone who lived in the city, Reachmen and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. Ulfric supposedly even ordered the deaths of shopkeepers, farmers, the elderly, and any child old enough to lift a sword that had failed in the call to fight with him. The surviving Reachmen fled to the hills of the Reach and became known as the Forsworn"

Stormcloak supporters always overlook the fact Ulfric is fairly evil.

Also Tullius may be an ass but replay the intro and pay attention to the dialogue, when the dragon attacked rather than focus on eliminating the enemy the first thing he ordered was "Guards get the townspeople to Safety!"

That is from the "Bear or Markarth" right? That book is written by an Imperial Schoolar and IIRC is pretty much dissporven by the Markarth Jarl.

Didn't remember that, good find. I suppose Ulfric would shout something like "For Skyrim! For the TRUE Nords!".

This is propaganda from a book written by an "Imperial scholar." I would not any of it at face value.


And I am supposed to forgive Tullius because he wants to save some townsfolk from a Dragon attack? Sorry, but I am not that forgiving of people who want to see me dead. If only Tullius were not essential I would just sneak in and assassinate him and be done with the whole affair.

But it wasn't Tullius who wanted you dead, it was the captain. If the captain had brought the issue up with her superior and Tullius gave the order after that, then it would be his fault. But as it stands, it is the captain's fault for not inquiring further on why she had an extra prisoner.

And saving the townsfolk instead of running away is a pretty good mark in my book. It shows he is actually dedicated to protecting the people of Skyrim rather than the Empire's interests in Skyrim.

Tullius is responsible for the conduct of the soldiers under his command. Every commanding officer is. The captain was there because Tullius chose for her to be there. That must be the kind of officer he wants in his army, because that is the kind of officer he sends after such an important target as the very leader of the rebellion. Did you notice how Hadvar never questioned her order to murder you with no evidence or trial? It is rather plain that he has been to this dance before. I wonder just how many innocent people he saw the legion behead in his career? Ralof has the right of it when he says: "Now you've seen the true face of the Empire."

Well, you both have convined be to play as Stormcloak on my current Battlemage character. I don't like choosing a side in the first place, or swearing an oath, but it is the only way to get results here. Oaths don't mean anything to me anyways. They are just words to keep you from changing your mind.

It is very possible that the very unique situation that the executions took place in caused the captain to act erratically. Of course, the original plan was to take Ulfric to the Imperial city to await trial and execution, but unforseen circumstances caused them to choose Helgen instead. The captain might have been nervous due to the change of plans and the presence of the Thalmor, causing her to be more suspicious and impulsive than usual. After all, with all the present variables considered, the captain assuming you to be an enemy soldier does not sound so far-fetched.

And Hadvar did not question her because soldiers do not question their superiors, whatever order they give is final. Equating that to the captain being an evil sociopathic murderer is ridiculous, and referring her actions as the norm for the Legion even more so.

I am also sure that Ralof has the right of criticising the Legion's actions, especially after making such a great case while defending your innocence.

Ulfric has cooler voice acting.

Tullius is a better character, though. I almost always join legio roma.

I agree with L33ty, this was an unique occurance, and most of the evidence point to you and the thief being in on it. There was supposed to be a trial, but something hindered this, too bad we never found out what, though it was most likely the fear of retalliations/Ulfric getting away. Should they have investigated/awaited the execution of the two people who might be innocent, sure, but this is not a perfect world, and you can be pretty sure Ulfric's guys would have acted the same way if it was the other way around. Furthermore you don't actually try to proclaim yourself innocent, you keep your mouth shut. Would have loved it if you could yell that you were a loyal citizen of the empire or try to bluff/explain yourself out of it, perhaps even succeeding if you were clever enough.

Because attempting to reason with the imperials worked so well for Lokir.