-Ah... that Oliver. He is so cunning you could pin a tail on him and call him a weasel.

Not really. As it is made quite clear that the Enclave, a secret society who had people in the places of highest power (thus not being those people themselves), certainly did not improve the conditions for the nuclear apocalypse.


You put a lot of faith in House, like he is some sort of benevolent messiah. Where does he promise to make all men equal and remove all prejudice? He would probably start the same [censored] if it favored an outcome he desired. He'd throw a bomb on something if it stood in his way.


It will last until the next thing comes along, because war, war never changes.


People make the Legion out like some sort of Luddites. They don't do drugs, but they allow medical technology (people seem to forget that even stimpacks are supposed to be pretty heavy drugs). Their training in melee weapons is partially because of their tribal backgrounds, lack of gun productions (no gun runners for them) and as a fall back (guns break down, but a melee weapon can only break).
They try to buy energy weapons from the Silver Rush/van Graffs.


Cleaning it up by throwing out or killing the unwanted people and throwing up a new checkpoint at the entrances so poor people can't get in.


The endings suggest both.


There are already cities with pre war living standards and technology. I think Vault City is the first and Shady Sands is probably the second. Certainly the NCR would have several of those by now.

You are painting a rosy picture, forgetting that most likely he will chase out all those that don't fit his plan and kill those that won't budge.
Robot workers are cheaper and more effective, so he'd probably would not need a lot of human workers.
House doesn't seem to value aid to the lesser, allowing at best others to do so. Any school he would built would probably bring all cost at the attendants. People are probably better of going to the Followers for education, especially those less well of.
He'd make an economically strong Vegas, with those that can't afford it thrown out.

It's seems people here can easily see the faults in the others plans, their follies and what not, but House's are treated as some sort of Utopian-everything-will-be-all-right.
Most endings have House ignoring things that aren't Vegas, except Goodsprings and Primm (if you allowed the NCR to take control) and both aren't all that great (you are better of when House ignores you). Two out of three Freeside/King endings have him purging all opposition. An independent Vegas whether controlled by the Courier/Yes-Man or House is seen as a less safe place than before according to the followers ending (Guess those NCR boys were good for something).

All in all, I don't think House's future has a lot of room for those that aren't well of. Which is why I really don't have much of a qualm with offing him.
His cold, calculated pragmatism and arrogance seem to amplify my feelings that he isn't in it for the people but for his own vision. He wants to see this and that happen, he wants progress not for the people's sake but for his own glory and his vision. It's this vision in which the only place for some humanity is to placate the masses so as not to interfere, that makes me uneasy about him. He is quite the despot; Everything is fine unless you are (remotely) in the way of him and his plan.
Like all endings there are those that flourish under his rule, those that are worse of and those that die because of it.

I feel like an idiot for killing House now after reading this thread. I need some way to justify my independent route.. :sadvaultboy:

Mr. House is a genius. He is trying to do something that noone before tried to do in real life. And we, people that are going through this story and making the decisions find this new approach appealing for several reasons, most of which related to the solutions alternatie to House.

The Ceasar's Legion is a brutal force that wants to purge the wasteland. The avarage player does not feel like he would survive this sort of purge. We rather stand on the side of the purged instead on the side of the purging ones and not by choice, but by who we are. We live in an age when we would like to be judged well not for our physical prowess, but out social and mental skills. The Ceasar's Legion ignores these.
The NCR is portrayed as history repeating itself, it's America all over again - capitalism and democracy in it's worse form, too much like what we see in TV today. Most of us is fed up with politicians and the games they play. We know that this is the type of society which uses terms like 'PR'. We're tired of the politic half-truths or simply lies, so NCR does not get much love from the player.
A lone courier being the leader is much more appealing, but is not the best solution for a player - What we players want is to make decisions for our own, kill monsters and acquire rewards. Becoming a leader of a city is putting oneself on the table, where anyone can snipe you down. The role of the helper, special agent and invisible hand is far more fun to a player than that.
And then there's House. He proves to us, that he knows exactly what he's doing. He has total control of the city in one mind, with no votes involved, no coalitions to create - just House and the Plan. And this appeals to the player mostly because if the player was there in 2277, then house would apreciate him for his social and intellectual skills. And the world House proposes would also apreciate this kind of character. And there's the curiosity - NCR wants to put the old smelly democracy, Ceasar is killing off the people I would spare, but this guy House - I've never seen anything like what he wants to do. And it is going quite well right now. It is an order created not by force (Ceasar), not by propaganda of democracy that we already know (NCR), but by the natural laws of economy and mathematics, by a mind that can handle all that. And that's why it seems so appealing.

My opinion is that NCR brings a whole bog of petty sins of all the politicians that lead the Republic - a swrm of butterflies type of sins, that will fly aound you to blind you. The Ceasar and his legion bring a pack of rats type of sins - hungry for death, ready to kill anyone who stand in the way. House is a single person - he will either do right or do wrong, but his every decision is visible. His sins are like elephants, only there can be none, if he's true in what he says e'll do. And if his vision will make him do wrong to the people, he will not survive, because sooner or later someone will attack him and succeed - he is a single person and as such can be defeated easily. IT is the power of the City that surround him that protects him the most. If he does wrong, the city will no longer be on his side and he will succumb. And, being as brilliant as he is, I doubt he'll upset the city to the point in which it strikes back - and if that does not happen, then there are no reasons for anyone to attack him, and so his reign continues. Of all the forces there, House has it planned out the best.

After concuring the region Ceasar plans to keep peace by killing. NCR has no plan whatsoever, or actually, each politician and each block will have it's own plan. House has it all layed out - the peace will be kept, because everyone's wellbeing and caps will depend on that. It would profitable to every citizen to remain peaceful rather then to steal/kill/loot.

As for me soloing the city - I am sure, that I could not handle it. Just like that. I'd lke to see how House does it, so I'd choose him, that's all.

This is going to be a looong post to reply to all of the above. Bear with me.


-Err… wat? Maybe its because I am ESL but I didn’t get that?


-House makes no such promise. I don’t see him as a benevolent messiah. I do see him as a benevolent dictator though.


-And the NCR / Legion would not?


-Which is more or less the story of mankind. Nothing is forever. Same thing goes for both legion and NCR.


-Sure. They are hypocritical about their choises in the way they seek a prewar utopia. At least according to my vague memory and the Wikia the legion blames tech for the war and destruction of civilization. Stimpacks are everywhere so using that as an example of tech is pretty vague. As for the Legion trying to aquire energy weapons…. Sure. Why wouldn’t they? They don’t renounce weapons tech… They do use rifles ect, which makes them even more hypocritical.


-Which is any different how from any other place in the post apocalyptic US? The NCR doesn’t do this? The Legion? Is Vault City for instance open to the poor? And shady sands? Don’t you think that a place in the post apocalyptic US that had jobs, shelter, food would be if not overrun then beset by urbanization? How would any other place like Vegas deal with the problems any differently?



-First of all the NCR ending suggest that NCR “Encouraged” the followers to leave. That means little to no free medical care for the citizens of vegas and indeed the annexed Mohave. Goodsprings is “safe” but heavily taxed. “Some” oldtimers leave. NCR repeadetly “encourages” the Kings to join. I think it would merely be a question of time before this “encouragement” would become a demand. Having a free haven in the middle of an NCR Vegas and a prehistory of confrontations? No. Novac needs defenses to “remain independent” of NCR. Diplomacy with an Iron fist lurking here. . Primm is pretty much the only place to “benefit greatly”. I don’t think the image is as clear cut as you would have us think.


-Lets examine that statement shall we? Vault city is by and large a worse elitocracy than that of House. Its strictly regulated (some would say fascist). Shady Sands and indeed any place with shelter, food, protection and especially jobs would be places where people flocked to. If Shady sands had reached this level it would suffer the same effects of post apocalyptic urbanization as Houses Vegas. People would seek out these places in numbers far disproportionate to citys ability to absorb them. That would mean slums, violence and crime. Shady sands would indeed be a major city but it would take House few years to reach and surpass them… just by virtue of the caps he would bleed from NCR dignitaries and tourists alone.

-Nah. I am not. And you are forgetting that both NCR and the legion would do both in a heartbeat. As proven by the eviction of the followers in vegas and the outright murder of House (essentially a political hit) and the destruction of the Brotherhood (in at least one ending).


-I think you are missing a few things here. I haven’t seen any working Securitron or Mr Handy factories. Infact the few robotics factories there are, are ruins that would require either extensive repairs or outright demolishion. And even if he did get those factories up and running, those would require a lot of raw materials not readily available, especially for high end robotics. Some materials might be downright impossible to aquire. And even if there were found places to mine these minerals and materials would be mined by manual labor. Usin Robots would simply be too expensive, too risky for a very long time. That pretty much leaves us with manual labor. That means jobs. For real people. Lots of them.

-House would have to value them in the long run. We have already established that the application of robots would be impractical, expensive and risky. Vegas is set to expand. That means that house would need skilled labor. A labor force that is right there in the slums. A cost effective way of screening for these potentially skilled laborers would be to start elemental schooling. It would also keep the masses more content, and keep the potential risks and costs of having to send in expensive impossible to replace securitrons to subdue the rabble. Ofcourse there would be an “elementary school” where people would get basic skills and the “protégé schools” for the better gifted. And having a large workforce would mean that the price for unskilled labor would remain low.

Also House cant afford the slums to become too large or unsupervised. Slums would mean crime, contagious diseases, ect. And having NCR fatcats and tourists mugged or conned or even catching diseases would be very detrimental to business. He would have to keep the slums in check, and whilst 9mm bullets can solve a lot, eventually he would need that brass for something else (More robots for instance). Wholesale slaughter of slums would be expensive, risky for the robots and leave a public relations problem for House. Which is why I don’t get the canon ending in regards to house and the followers. Having people work pro-bono to keep people disease free and at least semi-healthy seems like a pretty good deal. It would take minimal caps and effort for house to keep the followers afloat. It doesn’t make sense for a guy who is all business and all bottom line to ignore the potential of the followers.


-Which would be different how from any other place in the wasteland? You have caps, food and shelter… you live. You don’t… you die. That’s the same in both NCR and Vegas. NCR isn’t a Scandinavian welfare state. I know. I live in one.



-Because that makes sense? The bottom line driving any civilization is wealth. The more you hoard, the better your nation and your people are off. And House isn’t scrooge duck, someone who would just have the caps lying around for nothing. He would have them working to secure and expand Vegas.. and beyond. He would eventually prolly begin supporting NCR presidential candidates. With all that could entail.


-Prolly because you can’t be everywhere at once. NCR has a large standing army and a large bureaucracy. House lacks that. But he would eventually get both. Purging the kings is a logical choise as they are an armed faction inside “his” city which isn’t under his control. Like NCR he would not be able to keep that going in the long run. And besides Freeside would sponge caps off his efforts so why should he not purge them. Its simple business. Submit, leave or die. Better to get it overwith. As for safety… again. House would hardly be intelligent to leave his potential customers open for robbery before they reached the strip. He would have to get security and safety there eventually.


-Again. I don’t see that being much different from an NCR lead vegas and certainly not a legion led Vegas.


-Now… I have studied politics and I have a deep interest in history and I live in Europe. No significant Kings, Emperors, or any other state-builder, has been in it for the people. Ever. They are in it for power. They are in it for their own visions. In Europe we pretty much have 2 millenia of tribes and nation states killing each other for power. And we eventually ruled the world. In fact the last 50 or 60 years in Europe is an anomaly. We haven’t had general peace in that long since… forever. Even if you include jugoslavia and the puppet states of the east block its still a first. Despots and autocrats build states. Despots and autocrats eventually have to cede power or share it. Then Democracy takes over. But the building of the state starts with Despots and Autocrats. And the most wealthy of them were the ones that made the most significant impact on culture, religion and history. Even if the FO universe is different I do not It would diverge so far as to diverge from human nature and the most base foundations of societies and history.

Which again makes my case:
House is both the logical and long term most beneficial choise for both Vegas and the Mohave.

The House wins. Every time.

Not really.
This is a lot of conjecture and projection. Filling in the blanks the way you like them, how you would like to see it evolve. I'd argue that a lot of those logical conclusions would remain true for all factions taking over.
All we really have to go on are the ending slides. They tell us the near future (depends per slide, but most seem to be remain inside a decade) and they show us the focus of the various factions.
House is clearly painted as having mostly interest in Vegas the city and his own projects.
Thus making the only reason to keep House alive because he's a genius and that reason didn't stop me from killing the Master or Eden.
In the end all option are well presented as equable (with the exception of a new Ceasar legion).

As to what you didn't get. You were pointing at politicians as the source of the war, saying that he House wants to get rid of them (because of that?). I pointed to the Enclave, who are portrayed not as politicians but powerful people behind them (mostly businessmen, like House), as a prove that they weren't the source and he is more likely happy to see them go because they interfere with what he wants/plans.

House's plans can only benefit humanity in the whole, he want's technological progression, he doesn't want the money for himself, what the [censored]'s he going to spend it on, he lives in a box. He can only spend it on Vegas. He wants to colonise other planets for [censored]s sake, he remaining in control and free from the bastard NCR can only result in an improvement for some, people have being saying here that he will punish the poor residents and throw them out. Well why not, junkie's and thugs stabbing each other and his potential customers, House doesn't believe in holding hands. Mr House wants progress as far as I can see, he turned himself into a monster so he would survive and his visions with it, didn't stop me from killing him but the fact is I think his continued rein will benefit in the long-run.



We consisted of Politicians, high-ranking military leaders, businessmen and others who were high up in the US Government, of course the President was involved, the Oil Rig has a War Room for christ sake.

:banghead: Realistically if i was wearing power armour, no bullets in the wastleland would damage me, therefore i could just walk through battlefields. Making the brotherhood of steel the best faction in the game. Realistically house should have died years ago of old age or of radiation. Realistically the securitrons could just shut down and they have no source of power, unless house is using massive double A batteries. See what i mean?

The gold bars are like snowgoles, then when you go to kill him he has a solid gold box... House likes bling too you know. Or maybe he turns his six bot solid gold... Or something.
But yeah I dont get people saying he is after money and all that crap when he cant spend it, he has everything to live, he cant get out of the box, so what can he spend it on...
Ok Just an awesome idea, imagine a liberty prime, but houses box is in the middle allowing him to move. I would buy that if I was house...

No he explains in his quests that he has a Reactor installed beneath the Lucky 38, enough for him and the Securitrons, he wouldn't die of radiation posioning because he destroyed the Nuclear weapons heading for Vegas, he is plugged into a machine which keeps him alive.Enclave

I macheted his face my first play through.. you just gotta take a secret folder to his little capsule bring him out.. EFF HIM UP!

Not really PA isnt bullet proof, just like securitrons, it only takes one bulet to kill a person due to blood loss, not a machine. Secondly there are more securitrons than BoS, house win.
Realistically the BoS die due to not having enough power, house has the dam supplying vegas, what do they have for their armour ? Bunker ?

-By "this" I assume you mean this discussion. Its an academic one since we are discussing a fictional history. Ofcourse I would have to agree.

But our agreement would end there. I really don't feel I have endulged in any wild speculations. Your basic beef with House seems to be that he is an autocrat. A dictator. That he isn't nice to people. Well... I can't think of any one who was nice who built an empire without building on the back of the people. In fact the most effective way of rebuilding a nation/city state is through a "benevolent dictator" (Case in point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Kuan_Yew). It took a more or less despotic leader less than 30 years to turn a third world nation into a world class economic powerhouse.




-Ah. I do get it now. But I do see you as being wrong. Because whilst the "big business" funded and prolly also (in the case of the Enclave) conspired with the politicians the fact is that the Enclave, big business ect, would have had a har time doing it without the politicans. They are the corruptable factor. The weak link. The essential link. An "Enclave" v 2.0 could easily rise within the structure of the NCR (if it hasn't allready). House on the other hand would be hard to corrupt because he has nothing really that would tempt him outside of fulfilling his own vision.

I sort of agree on your last point.
But my problem was mostly directed at people pointing to House as the only logical decision. The fact is that each ending has positive and negative points and I can't really see one that is the best.
The only true evidence they supply is prediction, which often can go either way, but are supplied as negative for the NCR (going as far as collapsing) and positive for House. I'll leave that for the fanfiction, because given the world of Fallout it could range from House realizing the need for aiding the Mojave's less fortunate to him becoming so distant from people he decides to pull a Van Buren and nuke the world to start over with robots.


Those politicians were quite often mere puppets for those powers.
House in essence has disabled the middle man, though that doesn't really mean that the problem won't arise in a place without politicians, you just have to have the majority power because you can't shift the blame. Also not everything politicians do is detrimental to men.

- Ofcourse its a matter of taste, and as we all most likely realize, taste is subjective. I am quite aware that my disposition toward House is causing me to focus on the potential rather than he detrimental.


- there are no guarantees. But even if House will eventuall have (as I see it) need of a bureaucracy and that that bureaucracy is potentially a danger, the surveilance of House will be pretty intense. The risks involved in a conspiracy will be considerable. And ofcoure there are politicians who are idealistic and who genuinely wish to be of benefit to mankind. But unfortunately power has a tendency to corrupt. Politicians of today are so reliant on funds from big business to conduct campains that its easy to "Cut a heal and clip a toe" to be able to fit into the glass shoe. The temptation to keep on "compromising" on own ideals is substancial enough in this day and age. In a prewar america berift with intrigue it must have been almost like Rome. The people would elect whoever supplied enough "Bread and Circus". Or "Oil and safety" as it would be in the case of the FO alternate universe.

I suppose it would be possible to see House as a potential cancer. His economic powers would make it very easy for him to take an active and powerfull part in NCR politics for instance. If he could come to some sort of arrangement with the economic powerhouses of the NCR even more so. If he played his cards right and had enough time he could perhaps even become the "shadow shogun" of NCR. Whilst I would welcome that because I am more enclined toward meritocracy, and technocracy and generally like House, I am quite aware that would be seen as a substancial if not paramount threat to people who believe in the democray and the version of freedom the NCR has to offer.

My beef with house is that he is a dictator. And that he is arrogant. He expects you to work for him even though he gives no real reason why. For all you know he could be planning genocides and slaughters and you wouldnt find out until later on in the game. And that he claims he is helping mankind, when in the ending it shows he wiped out the kings, who were helping freeside greatly, because they worked with the NCR to help the people of freeside. And because he seems only interested in new vegas. I mean, sure he may make new vegas more efficient, not freeside. Also that he will make new vegas the greastest city and he says that will help mankind. How exactly? He talks about space stations and finding new planets. wtf. firstly there are still many people starving and dieing and fighting in the wasteland and he will use his recourses to build spaceships and shuttles. If he wanted to do some good, he should use his securtitrons to wipe out the fiends. Or build new hospitals. And i dont really buy his, i just want to help mankind speech becuase of that. And new vegas will still be a place for the rich.

Dont get me wrong, house seems like a recourseful guy and maybe he could get to a new planet. But he seems to have his priorities wrong and so i refuse to work for him.

-After you wipe out the leadership, he does just that.


-He is not in it to "help mankind". He is in it to "uplift" mankind. Big... big diffrence.


-The rich need places to be too. Besides everyone can go to the strip. If they have the cash. And as we see even lowly shopkeepers get to go to the strip. Besides. House will bleed caps from the rich and expand. That is bound to help some of the poor even if it doesn't help all or even alot.


-You need money to be a philantrophist IF you give untill you have nothing left then you are a begger too. I like houses priorities. Expand, uplift, develop. Static people and static states eventually die out.

But you are right. House is a despot and his first priority isnt the "people". I suppose thats enough for some to decide to off him.

This is something that bothers me about the trend I've seen on the board. Everyone says 'He's rich, doesnt play altruist. MUST BE EVIL!' But alot of people fail to realize that while it is sweet of them to try and build the world while loving everyone and anyone, Alot of the leaps and bound success in life was achieved through Machiavellian behaviors. I'm not saying it's GOOD to be cold, I just feel that people are placing to much value on the individual and not the whole painting.

In regards to Wrighty and The Strip. The Strip is a luxury, a commodity. We do not have a right to excessive lights, gambling, [censored]s, alchohol, and other debaucheries. Everything The Strip offers is a privelege, and a privelege is only for those who have earned to it. It might sound like Im cold, but this is the way the world works.

Despite a strong desire to do so I have yet to end the game with House as my side so I don't know what he does with Freeside?

I give the kings some power, letting them semi police freeside. Obviously they have to be contained and cannot be allowed to become a large threat (or even excessive in number) but making them the guards of Freeside? Yeah that's a fine plan by me. With Freeside protected and the Fiends gone NV itself is pretty goddamned safe. Oh and of course the FoA are there to give a hand to the needy.

Don't get me wrong, if I was there I'd be pushing for a bit more involvement with the people outside the Strip but even if he remains focused purely on economic gain, technological progress and so on it would still be safer than the NCR's idea of protection, which is "mug them before the muggers get 'em".




Anyway, point is, House would make a safe NV, in the FO world we don't have a right to anything, having the protection of an extended gang, free medical help, access to stores and a bed, not to mention a nice wall to fend off the animals and patrols to dissuade more persistent enemies....

New Vegas (which should be renamed Vegas please, Mr. House sir) would be a veritable haven and dependent on just how many securitrons we have/can be active at one time the protection should expand somewhat. Overall, for the people, it's between House and the wild card option which is too variable to be definitive, so House gets it.

Wow....

This thread has develed into some of the most deepest and emotionally/intellectually revelant discussion that I have seen. Indeed, what we are basically discussing here is the age old debate which concerns "rule of the people" versus a "benevolent dictator" and most off whats being talked about here can be applied to real life situations. My own personal views on politics and life in general have been affected by this thread....my head hurts too.... :bonk:

and now to add my own thoughts



I am never really given any reason to go with the other factions either....aside from "the NCR is a good friend to have" (please give me a break). In fact, Mr. House got my attention early on when he PAID ME for the return of his chip and at 4 times the amount that was originally specified, if thats not a good reason to feel good towards the guy then I don't know what is...

and we know he doesn't plan genocides and slaughters because the endings slides don't say anthing about it...plus you're really just speculating, that same argument can be made as a reason to not support any faction/ person in the game. For example: "I don't want to help the *insert faction here* becuase you never know, they could be planning genocides and slaughters after they take control/gain power."

-As its prolly no surprise to anyone I do agree.

The antipathy against "rich, status" ect is even a bit hypocritical as most of the people who play NV do NOT give their medical supplies to the followers. They do NOT give caps to follies. Rather they Hoard every single cap they can get their crummy hands on and spend them on what? More "luxories" for themselves.... and thats if he caps don't become a goal in themselves.

And yes. Your weapon, kit ect ARE luxories. You are acting more or less the same, if not worse than House. You have no qualms helping those that pray on the weak for experience and caps. And if there is an NPC tht doesn't give a "karma/rep" hit, you have little if any problem with killing them. And if you want that "cool" ncr ranger armour, you have to kill them. Thats not nice. Thats Murder one and "The chair" if you ever got caught. You too wipe out any opposition that won't move and sometimes you don't even try to resolve things peacefully. At least House worked his way to the top. You're killing your way.

Exactly, well pointed out, it really gets on my wick how people say House is bad because he has the sheer nerve to demand payment for his services,he had to doom himself to an eternity living in a box and he saved Vegas, used all his earnings to protect it from the bombs and keep it safe, he rebuilt it. He has big plans and the NCR are just bullyinh hypocritical thugs and the Legion are just the Legion, hell, anti-individualism is there [censored] name. House does intend well of course he does, he's not going to buy a yacht or a sports car, he has no need for money personally or anything really, everything he does is for the benefit of others in the long run, he's a benevolant dictator. Vegas and the Mojave will prosper under him, some of the NCR rulers are corrupt and cheating enough, what will happen when the [censored] Sin City itself becomes a state.

He earned his place, the bums who shoot up on jet and med-x stay where they belong; of course his goals put me at odds ends with him so... yeah... I'm not going to have wastelanders colonising new worlds, being humanities new civilisation. Besides I want revenge on the NCR and setting the Legion on them is the best way.

The thing I really hate about 'I HATE HOUSE, HE BAD MAN' is that some of these same people roam around the Wasteland stealing, killing for giggles, and wiping out settlements. Then they say "THATS DIFRENT CUS I AM" making no logical defense. What else gets me is that the people who side with Yes-Man take over Vegas. All they are doing is replacing one dictator with another, IE yourself.

When it comes down to it, it's the classic case of people envying a man more powerful and intelligent than they. Between ruling New Vegas or letting a mathmatical and robotics genius run the city? He'd have the better chance of revitalizing technology and paving the way to the dawning of a new day for humanity.

O_O... I didn't even read what he said.. I just shot him.