The reason I went with the Armor skills affecting your armor rating was because, as Longknife pointed out, the current system doesn't really utilize your skills when it comes to taking on these new forms, and I, like him, feel that shouldn't be. Your skills in human form should complement your skills in beastform. I agree it's probably not the best system, but it's one I think helps your character progress in strength in both forms simultaneously.

Of course, the Toughened Hide perk could be added to the tree anyway, to add a bit more resistance for safety's sake.

I'm also working on how some of the perks could be applied to your beastform as well. The most obvious ones are the One-Handed and Two-Handed weapon specific perks, which will add an extra effect to your standard slash attack depending on which perk you have (Bleeding, Critical Hits, ignore armor).

And just for fun, I've started working on ideas for other werecreatures, starting with werevultures. I don't want them in Skyrim, but it's fun to just try and come up with new powers and abilities, considering this is fairly uncharted territory (I haven't found any books going into great detail on werevultures or other Lycanthropes, so if you know one send me a link please).

Werevultures are just rediculous because they would fly and it'll just ruin the whole concept of going through doors with loading screens instead of going through doors.

Going through doors is a concept? I mean I guess it is, but it's not really the kind of concept I buy a game for.

My thinking about Werewolves is that the attack should be a bite not slashing with claws. Also the wild ones seem very weak more like jack russells than huge powerful animals full of beast rage and hunger.

I think there should be bite attacks, but not as the main one, considering they are bipedal. Maybe if you do the double power attack they could swipe with both claws and then grab and bite their victim? If the opponent would be killed it could count as a feeding too, similar to what Vampire Lords have going for them.

hate in the fact of they're breaking lore, they're not done right, they're stupid, or you just hate them for their character?


Who knows, maybe it was an oversight, perhaps it'll get patched in, who knows, I mean the original perk tree was MASSIVE, if it was leveled up the same as how the current one is it'd take AGES to level up, hours of none stop beasting, you'd need the ring of hircine to do it efficently. Who knows what that perk tree had, but regardless the current one is near perfect, just a slight alteration and it'd be perfect and i'd be throwing my money at bethesda. I don't care good work deserves credit.


I myself am more partial to the ancient Vampire of 60s DISCO..... Boogie Woogie BLUH!!


I understand what you're getting at.

You want some things from the Default form to be incorporated into Beast Form, I get that and it's understandable, like one handed would work because that's building up muscle from swinging a sword all damn day and the Werewolf would indeed get stronger because of the damnable sword swinging.

I do like what you said about Werebears being 2 handed though, but I imagine them attacking slower, their hits maybe staggering their enemy but attacking with both paws at once in a slow cumbersone swinging motion unlike the Werewolves fast one hand strikes.

I do wish they'd have kept the Toughened Hide perk, other than damage that was to be my favourite perk. if they could just incorporate it somewhere in the perk, maybe give it 1 or 2 levels even one for 25% damage reduction and the other for 50% atleast then that would make me so happy.

But the problem is Bethesda may no add them in, I mean I wouldnt blame them, they've done alot of work on the game. And they should be appreciated for a damn good game.

True true, it's not perfect things venture off from lore, I know I understand. Lore is important because it sets the "rules" of the world in cyber-stone.

Hopefully. After Dawnguard comes out for everyone else. Perhaps they will think about some alterations to the perk tree, and the lunar changes. Possibly more possible for the Lunar changes since I think changing a perk tree would be harder.

Now regardless of what Werewolf&Vampire has said. I think Todd has the best interests in mind, I know they've gone away from the rules I know. But perhaps (I'm not a mind reader I'm just guessing) perhaps he and Bethesda want to introduce Elder Scrolls to a new generation of players who thought they'd never like Elder Scrolls, from there getting new players these people venture into lore and learn about it. If THEY the new players then want Lunar Changes and this and that. Then Todd and bethesda have done what they wanted and can please the Older Scrolls ugh Older Fans.

But again, I'm just guessing. People in the modern age are lazier gamers than when Bloodmoon was out.

So I know we all love lore. I'd like Lunar Changes myself and all that other great stuff. But sometimes things change for the benefit of the player, because modern players like simplicity unless they REALLY get into it, and I myself am a new player.

I HATED Oblivion i thought it was the stupidest game in history and I thought all Elder Scrolls were the same. But Skyrim has taught me alot about Elder Scrolls. and I still hate Oblivion, but I'd like to play older Elder Scrolls.

I'm just saying REL, W&V, everyone. The player will always come first, and unless all the players want something, or a high majority it may not happen.

Everyone thought the Werewolves were badly done, so Bethesda gave them a perk tree to make them better.

If everyone thinks Werewolves should have 2 strains in the game. Then Bethesda will likely do that too.

I appreciate if anyone reads ALL of this. Thanks again

I was just watching some videos of vampire and werewolf mods on youtube, and it is quite obvious that modders have better ideas than the developers themselves. Some of the mods look amazing, and it just baffles me as to why Bethesda would not include some of the features when modders can do it quickly and efficiently, and they're doing it for free on their spare time.

I don't know. Maybe because they're fans and they know what the fans want. Perhaps Bethesa get ideas from mods. Who knows.

Games companies go with what they see as the safe commercial option. Moders on the other hand go with there imagination and have the freedom to do whatever they want.

I'm a console player, and watching some of those mods made me jealous. I know this, leave it to the fans to make right what Bethesda made wrong. I hear they also fixed magic, which is also messed up in Skyrim. It makes me question whether Bethesda actually likes Skyrim.

This is what I want to know as well. People, and Bethesda, say that they get ideas from mods yet I have not seen it. I think Bethesda should look at REL_Dovahkin's ideas he wrote down because they are how they should have done werewolves and vampires. Hopefully, they will take these ideas into account when they make the next TES.

By safe commercial option do you mean poor game design decisions. That's basically what a lot of modders are doing. They're fixing Bethesda's screw ups.

If they didn't they'd move onto the next game. They're just more loving towards PC gamers since PCs can do more than consoles. >_> I know it's annoying

I hope they do.

Which could be another 5 years. And I'm not waiting 5 years. And in Elder Scrolls 6 they may not even add Werewolves and Vampires because of the reception they're getting from Skyrim. They may not add any form of Lycanthropy. I know being a console gamer is hard compared to how easy the PC gamers have it, but I don't care. I bought it for Ps3 knowing PC gamers would mod the hell out of it. And I don't care.

In a word yes the marketing men have a big say in what goes into a game we often rage at the devs but a lot of the time they have there hands tied.

That's true. They still should not be free of blame, though. It's not like it's all out of their hands.

Looking at mods will only make you jealous.

That's exactly what it did. It also makes me somewhat mad at Bethesda for their terrible design decisions.

But there's a healthy number of people who don't want/care about werewolves/vampires/dragons, and a huge number of other things in these games. To me, it makes sense to make each piece of the game as appealing as possible, maybe not to the general public, but the people who want to fit that role. It doesn't matter if mages don't like the thief skills if the thieves think they work (not all of them do, but that's a subject for another day). Each play style should be optimized for the desires of the people who want to play in that style, and making it so that they're all equally viable. I don't think you need to make it so that newcomers can't dive in and learn how to play any given build, but each build should have enough to really make it appealing to play as. As it stands, if you want to play as something other than the Warrior builds, you're really out of luck. Magic is utterly gutted, and the Shouts, while fun, have such long cool downs they aren't viable at all as a combat style. You can Sneak, but you're still going to find yourself forced into combat more often than not, and Speech is utterly worthless all things considered.

The above complaints make me think they tried too hard to make everything equally appealing to either newcomers or the general audience, at the expense of making things appealing when you focus on each of them individually. When you look at the skills and perks all at once, they look nice, but when put under the microscope, very few of them stand out.

Ideally, the skill sets wouldn't be developed by one team, but smaller teams focused on each part individually. One team works on warriors, another works on stealth builds, and another on mages. Subteams would work on how the base characters form and the monsters play off one another. That way, they could tell if any of the builds are insufficient and lacking.

A lot of this can be attributed to the 11/11/11 release date (as well as the bugs). Skyrim seems like a lot of things in it should be much bigger than they are in game, and feel cut down, rushed, or otherwise lacking due to time constraints. That's not to say I don't enjoy the game for what it is, but I always feel I have to keep moving in the game because if I stop and look around at it, I'll notice all the ways it could be improved upon if they simply had more time.

A large part of this thread is actually looking at what could be improved, not through DLC, but rather in the next TES game. I use the current stuff we have because, not only is it pertinent to Skyrim's flaws, which I hope are still addressed and resolved some more, but because until we know where the next game is taking place (hoping for Black Marsh and Elsweyr myself), we can't really discuss what vampires and lycanthropes should be. We can put theoreticals for future games, like what the Whet-Fang vampire powers should be, which I encourage, but we can't really say what they should be until we know what we're in for.

Then why get jealous over something you have no power over or no control of, if you liked what you saw you should have gotten Skyrim for the PC, we console players should know by now the PC community are much tighter and can change a game they have at their whim. Buying for console creates restrictions. Restrictions I'm happy for.

And personally, just speaking my mind here guys. I'm slowly, getting fed up, of people bashing a company of which brought them 200+ hours of entertainment for a small price. I'm not defending Bethesda I don't think they need defending. And I'm not trying to hate on anyone, no one at all, I know you're all upset about things not being the way they are. But is it worth the amount of frustration it seems to have brought up in people? No I don't think so. But it seems your all taking this far too close to heart than nessecary have a passion for it, but don't let it rule your gaming life.

Modders can modify whatever they like how ever they like without restrictions, without deadlines, Bethesda and Companies work to a deadline and they have to complete something. If they were going to add extra stuff like Dawnguard they'd have to pay voice actors, to do extra lines, they'd have to pay script writers for writing it. Modders don't get paied no pay anyone.

Sure things aren't perfect things are not the way they could or should be. It's not the end of the world. Now I'm all for freedom of speech (partially).

And I'm all for change, I'd love lunar stuff and all this amazingly thought out Werewolf and Vampire upgrades. I think it would be BLOODY FANTASTIC!

I think we need to be a bit more mature because I think some of us are beginning to over react to this.

This is just my opinion on how things lately are comming out. I'll understand if I'm wrong and now appologise if you feel offended by what I've said, disagree with what I've said, or think what I have said is rude, so yes again.

I'm Sorry.

I agree with you, and I don't take this close to heart. I just dislike poor game design. I'm not coming out and saying lets gather out in front of Bethesda, and call ourselves Occupy Bethesda.

I do believe that the gaming industry as a whole needs to show more responsibility. This doesn't just apply to Bethesda, but all game developers and publishers.

That makes sense.

But again. If people set it out like you, in a pleasent professional like tone, and way they'll probabily listen or read.

Saying how bad bethesda have ruined something, or how stupid they've become or the general insulting. In my eye wouldn't be a big hit with him.

With people continuously bashing

how they've done something wrong in this game and blaming them for it, as if it's the end of the world, and that Bethesda have done something so horrible like burning a bible infront of the Pope. I wouldn't expect to see anything that people liked in a future game for a while.

So if Elder Scrolls 6 won't have Vampires or Lycanthropy, because of the negative reactions people gave from Skyrim. They may be put in Elder Scrolls 7. And that could be 10 years or more.

And frankly by then I'll be 40 years old and I love Werewolves, utterly love them. I do not want to wait a possible 10 years for Werewolf fun, because people from Skyrim reacted so badly to a few gameplay changes.

Again, I'm not trying to be rude. I'm not trying to start a flame war or a fight. I'm expressing how I think things could go.

Bethesda it seems are doing their best to get in what people wanted, people wanted Wild Werewolves we've got them, people wanted stronger Werewolves we got it. People wanted Mount combat, craftable arrows, new weapons, Flaming Mounts. Vampire Lords, they're giving it to us the best they can.

Modders can do what they like because it's their own free time, so they can perfect every little detail. Bethesda do it because it's their job, they don't have the free time to get every little thing right, and they have to try and balance it out for gameplay reasons.

Or So I'd expect.

I'm sorry If I seem rude, I'm just getting a little towards the end of my tether with people becomming too negatively emotional to this whole thing.

Now I like people care SO MUCH about it. I think that's great The Elder Scrolls has the most loyal fanbases i've EVER seen. However people are really getting a bit highstrung with this thing. Bethesda put in Werewolves because people wanted Werewolves, they weren't great, Bethesda made them better.

I'm not trying to be the black sheep of the thread, who seems to be defending a multi million corporation at every turn. I know they haven't reached people's expectations. But in recent years I think people's expectations have become too high.

That's all I'm saying for the time being. And again i'm sorry

But it's not poor game design. it's good game design, it's people who want MORE from the game design, more from something which was added extra. It's like seeing your favourite actor in a movie and he's not the main character and he does next to nothing in the movie, you WANT him to do more to BE more. But in the end of the day the point of him atleast in that movie, was to be an extra nothing more.

Werewolves and Vampires were just designed to be an extra, this isn't "their" game, Bloodmoon was the Werewolf's game. Dawnguard is halfly the Vampires game. This is the Dragon's game and the Dragonborn's game. The Werewolves and the Vampires are just extra actors in this grand movie to fill out the background to put someone to cover up scenery. And even for extras they're fleshed out a fair bit. Werewolves have 3 notable quests, The totems, Sinding, and the Companions. Vampires have the few simple vanilla quests and half of Dawnguard. And with Dawnguard Werewolves got slightly closer to the main actor. Because now they're stronger, and there are wild ones.

it's like your favourite actor doing something REALLY COOL in 1 scene and you love THAT scene the most of ALL the movie because of it's your favourite actor doing that cool thing. It's what the Werewolves and Vampires have become. They're still extras, but they're given cool scenes.

i hope my metaphor didn't confuse anyone

There is no way you can tell me the magic in Skyrim is good game design. WWs and vampires are an extra, but I'd rather them not be there if they won't give them the attention they deserve. If you're not going to do something with the effort it deserves, then don't do it at all.

It's like I said, the game industry needs to show more responsibility.

I know what you're talking about when you say about people coming out and raging, but neither I nor any recent posters are doing that.