I too preferred unscaled. Or variants of it - like as described above with Marts Mutant Mod.

Setting encounters and loot to all appear at level 1 up was easy to do and actually was part of the first Oblivion overhaul (M.O.E.)

A few factors to consider for the future. An arbitrary division could be made between two schools of modding toward overhauls. Those that use script extenders and those that use the more traditional adjusting record by record what is to be changed. With OBSE (and to a lesser extent FOSE) each release offered new avenues to changing things. The upside was that with scripts operating compatibility amongst mods that didn't use them was high, but there is the chance that other script extended mods would conflict.

The more traditional route of record by record adjusting of things has the upside of being something that could be tracked with tools (bash & edit) but often meant that other mods that affect leveled lists or other records modified would need patching.

That dividing line is again arbitrary and taken for granted with Oblivion, but Fallout3 with leveled lists mods that make use of script extender made much more extensive use of FOSE to do things like adjust encounter types and adjust weapon stats and the like. moistly due to the late appearance of Wrye Flash

Both tools are on their way (Script Extender and Wrye Bash), so it will be interesting to see what form takes hold as the dominant method for level scaling.

I'd think for planning ahead that having leveled lists adjustments be traditional record by record approaches while having combat, stealth, magic mods be far more script extender driven would be ideal. Bash is still under constant development and making use of the traditional approach has value for compatibility reasons.

So yeah an unleveled/unscaled overhaul like in M.O.E. or TIE with just the lists done would be great. Then the other game settings, combat tweaks and the like done individually from there.

me too even at lv13. I'm a pure mage with low hit points... 2 hits dead.

LMAO. Gratz on building ur self as a craftman and non-fighter thief.

What did u expect, really?

You are pretty much asking them to give you lockpick, pickpocket and smithing maxed out without any consequences. If it would this way every new game start would consist on heavy boring grind.

Just wanted to report back in.

The bosses of the two large dungeons in the College of Winterhold quest chain both obliterated me. Both required several reloads. The second one required 15/16 tries, since he two shotted me with lightning spells. Playing on Expert still.

Dragon Priests in general are pretty insane boss fights. Popping highborn for near-infinite magicka and spamming dual casted spells for the stagger kills basically everything though. Kind of game breaking.

There is a particular witch which will remain nameless although that will literally destroy you within 2 hits of her spells. I was a big fan of OOO in Oblivion and so far the only downsides I have found in skyrim are random bugs...but who doesn't love flying giants! I am playing on default difficulty and usually have to hit low level and mid level 4-8 times with my one hand sword or about 5 second fire spell.

I really wanna see a hardcoe mod of some sort.... Eating, sleeping, and drinking water at least.

As a master thief and smither, you could make butt loads of gold and just pay for training and badass gear and enchants.

I don't see any imbalance here.

This is one of the reasons we need an Oblivion XP for Skyrim, the exp-based system is much better for me overall.

No, what it shows is Bethesda was too stupid to realize enemies should be scaling dependent on your COMBAT level, not auxiliary skill level.

This is all that needs be said.

I would love a level scaling mod... The only though enemies i found so far were the giants who took me to the skies by a single hit.... But other than that the enemies are easy.. :/

(lvl 7 at the moment)

I'm level 13 right now and Trolls destroy me if I let them get too close. Frost dragons are only time consuming when you've got plenty of cover from their ice breath. Try doing battle with one in an open area? I've just died, like, three times trying to kill this one dragon. I have nowhere to hide, so I simply ran and Force-shouted him to give me that momentary ability to get a hit in. Somehow he got really hurt, crash landed, and when I approached he took me in his mouth and turned me into a ragdoll.

I give up, for now. Luckily I saved RIGHT before he saw me.

Levelled loot is the problem in Skyrim, not levelled enemies. Stop missing the point.

The more I play skyrim the more I start to dislike the scaling system, both item and enemies scaling is very bad.

There is no feel for progression at all. Because, when I finally get that new awesome sword all enemies will have scaled with me, so they will die no faster or slower then they did before. I want to be able to 1 shot things, but I also want to be able to get 1 shotted. And yes I know giants does that just fine, but they are about the only thing ive seen that isnt scaled. And they are pretty useless anyway, killing them gives you no reward at all ( unless you count that "giant toe" as a reward ).

Also I wish there were high leveled places / dungeons like in morrowind, so when you enter and die after 1 hit you think - "ok, lets try this again when i'm more powerful". There is no such feeling in skyrim. At least I havent found any dungeon like that yet.

Same goes with smithing/enchant/alchemy, if you dont power level it ( aka gimping you character cause of scaling ), by the time you can actually make orcish armour for example, its allready for sale in a store. Which is kind of useless cause I allready have more gold then I can spend by that time. Smithing is quite nice for improving weapons/armor though, but the perks you get from your weapon/armor skill outweighs it, so again pretty useless skill because of scaling. What they should've done is make smithing/enchant/alchemy seperate skills that does not affect mob scaling. And if so probably tune it down a bit to not make it overpowered. Also remove scaling items in shops, since like i said it makes smithing more or less useless.

All of this is severely ruining the game for me. Its sad, cause everything else is perfect according to me. So I can only hope there will be a OOO type level scaling mod for Skyrim.

Just my 2 cents.

I'm having a difficult time finding answers for these questions. I originally posted this in the 'General' forum but it's gone of the page in about 10 minutes, and to be honest I trust the answers I'll get from modders more. Additionally it is related to loot scaling and the multiple mods that will no doubt have a go at fixing Beth's mistakes.

1) I understand that levelling up your smithing ability lets you create more powerful equipment? Reassure me that once you're rocking about in full Dragon gear with Daedric weaponry, that's not it? I really don't want to just 'create' the best gear available, I want to 'find' it in forgotten dungeons and abandoned mines etc.

2) Is there lots of unique loot? Please tell me 'Generic lightning enchanted Daedric long sword #7' isn't as exciting as the loot gets? I don't just mean Umbra appearing somewhere either, can you find loot like you found it in Morrowind?

I see many threads with forum denizens complaining about level scaled enemies. This is missing the point, just like the forums did with Oblivion. The main problem factor for continuity is level scaled loot. It's this concept that ruins any feeling of progression. If the loot just generically gets better alongside your level, ie, Elven fire sword > Daedric fire sword then it ruins immersion. Even more so if you just make it yourself! Where's the mystery and epic adventuring in that!?

1. As far as I could see the ore you need for crafting the equipment is leveled just like the rest of the loot. So even if you get your smithing skill to 100 with all perks needed as quick as possible you won't be able to craft the best equipment until your level is high enough to find the ore. But other than that I think you can craft the best equipment in the game yourself. Maybe there are a few unique armors/weapons which are better, don't know.

2. I guess really unique loot is tied to quests.

I think both scaled loot and scaled enemies are a problem. Unscaled loot can't exist without unscaled enemies, otherwise it would be too easy to obtain the high(er) quality loot.

Played some more and my character is now level 9. Funnily enough the game is getting harder now with a higher level character. Probably because my two-handed skill doesn't increase as fast as it used to be and I couldn't pick new perks for it since it's still below 50. So I got most of my level up points via non-combat skills like lockpicking, alchemy and by finding skill books for various skills I don't use. And now suddenly everyone is using orcish equipment. Seems like a shipment from High Rock just arrived. Facepalm #2. Perfectly shows why level scaling is crap.

Loot is scaled, in that you'll occasionally find weapons/armour that are great for your level hidden in ancient caves or chests. NPCs do not wear level scaled armour, which makes them a mixed bag - I can kill bandits with ease, but I was attacked by a few Thalmor Justicars and barely made it out alive (and was severely lacking in healing items after!). If you want to complain about creatures being too powerful, you should probably go look up how strong a bear/tiger is in real life.
Loot can contain enchantments, but good enchanted loot is very rare. If you constantly go into caves, you might end up with a few pieces, but it's fairly hard to come by. You will find a fair amount of weak-ish enchanted weapons, though.
All things considered, I think it's much better than Fallout 3, and infinitely better than Oblivion.

Playing on expert, I have to say that quite a few things are kicking my ass at level 8. To begin with I was like you "oh this is too easy", but it's pretty challenging in a lot of places now. Even the hired thugs who were sent to kill me were pretty tough

I play at master difficulty and set all my skills to zero at start.

Makes the game brutal.

After a few days playing, it's clear some of the most complained about aspects of Oblivions level scaling have again been implemented. I'm level 16 came across a highwayman wearing Elven armour.

The way I see it:
- if you focus only on combat the game will be easier because you are tougher
- if you focus on other skills and ignore "kill skills" you will be weaker

This is perfectly ok:
- a soldier is stronger than a regular person
- Wanna be a fighter? Then develop yourself as one..

As for bandits with higher level loot:
- its fine if you find a few here and there
- its not fine if by some level no bandit has low lvl equipment

The problem is that a low level character with average combat skill and no non-combat skills will one-hit kill everything he sees while a high level character with the same average combat skill and a lot of non-combat skills will be owned by almost everything in the world. So even though both characters have the same combat skills one is super powerful despite being low level while the other one is weak cannon fodder despite being high level. That's just not right.

No matter what kind of character you play, you are playing a combat video-game, which means you need at least one kill skill..

"kill skill" means that you will max out the equipment and perk investments for that skill.
If there is a better weapon, you go get it!!
If there are better arrows, you buy better arrows!!
If there are unspent perks, you spend them in your kill skill!!

A higher level non-combat character needs a kill skill even more that a low level combat focused character..
If you are level 20 and you don't have a kill skill, its your own fault..

You play the game avoiding combat?
So do I (lvl 12, 3 kills total) but I still have a kill skill and a good weapon to go with it..
Actually I have two (one handed and archery)..

I play as a pacifist whenever I can..
I drink a potion of invisibility to get passed a room with a lot of enemies..
I cast calm when I want to avoid combat or fight one enemy at a time..
I didn't loose a single soldier in the first dragon fight because I ran around and healed them when they got hurt..

You can play as a non combat character if you want to..
But you will have harder time IN COMBAT..

If all else fails, there are followers you can hire.

But in the end we go back to the beginning: you are playing a combat video-game
If you want to "play everything it has to offer" you get a kill skill..
Or the calm spell..

Sorry but I fail to see how this has anything to do with level scaling. I'm pretty sure everyone know that this game is about combat.

I don't know what Skyrim you're playing, but I'm level 26 atm, on NORMAL difficulty, as a Breton Warrior/Mage mix (currently wearing full dwemer, with a dwemer sword of fire (25 fire damage a hit) and it's more like this:

1. Bandits. Lower ranks are pushovers, but their bosses still hurt a lot (highwaymen, chiefs, etc) Been killed several times by getting surrounded by 2-3 of them.

2. Witches. If I get caught in their spells, it can really hurt, but if I get up close, as a warrior fighting a mage, I kill them fast. Hagravens svck!

3. Wolves. Wolves are easy, though Ice Wolves tend to hurt a bit.

4. Forsworn. The lower ranks are push overs. Their weapons hurt a lot, and their mages are really strong. I've dies several times by their hands.

5. Necromancers. Lemme guess, fought a few novices and passed judgement? Apprentice and higher are a real pain. Not olny are their minions dangerous, but so are their spells. Up close, they are durable, but they are no warrior.

6. Skeletons. Really? Skeletons have been, and always will be fodder enemies. Fight a shade. That's a nasty undead.

7. Draugr. You obviously have not encountered a Dragur Wight or Draugr Scourge. They HURT, and guess what? Scourge and higher have access to SHOUTS! They just love Disarm!

8. Trolls. Except they aren't slow. Try backpedalling, and they charge. Those frost trolls can kick the crap out of you if you aren't prepared.

9. Dragon. You're probably talking about a scripted fight, that had assistance. Further on, Dragons are hard, and they come in different types. But remember. You are the Dovahkiin. you are made to kill them.


Not at all. I'm level 26, and bandits never get better than leather and hide. As for highwaymen, they rob a lot of people, and thus have access to better gear. Also, Elven armor is not that rare, or powerful, as the Thalmor Elves constantly pump the stuff out. You won't see people trotting around in daedric, or a cave full of glass armored bandits. One person with a good set of armor does not make level scaling.

What you describe is exactly the problem I'm having. The game becomes harder as you level up, up to the point where it becomes unplayable if you raise the wrong skills. Did you ever wonder why I didn't meet Draugr Wights or Draugr Scourges yet? Or why I only met Necromancer novices? It's because of level scaling. I can't meet them yet because I don't have the required level.

I don't want the game to be super hard when I'm level 26. I want the game to be super hard when I'm level 1, I want the game to be hard in some cases when I'm level 25 and I want it to be easy when I'm level 50, with a few rare exceptions. Ideally there should be challenges for every level, so if a certain quest is impossible to complete at level 30 you can get back to it at level 50. That is all leveling up is about in a RPG after all. And when I manage to defeat an enemy 10 levels above me at a low level I want to be rewarded with some nice loot and not the same leveled crap everyone is using.

Right now there is a lot of level scaling going on and whether the game is hard or easy solely depends on the way you level up. Level only your major combat skills and you will be a god, level a lot of non-combat skills and you will be extremely weak. There is no reward for exploring the landscape and dungeons either, all you'll ever get is leveled loot appropriate for your level. The only difference between Skyrim and Oblivion I can see is that in Skyrim the level range is a bit larger (so enemies and loot isn't always exactly at your level) and that low level enemies don't disappear completely once you've reached a certain level.

I simply want a game that doesn't make me feel like it's throwing new enemies and loot at me only because I've reached a certain level.

I have an idea where a MOD can be created to do such tasks

NPC's sell books that cost tons of gold, the books allow you to buy perks. These just aren't some simple books that add a perk, they have to be detailed to the nature of the perk with written contents in the book on the subject of the perk (for RP purposes)

This way a player can concentrate on certain roles he wants to fulfill and play about his character and if he wants to work on buying perks through knowledge of the books he can. I believe adding a PERK to your player doesn't level you up or alter the skill or required skill?