this. on top of that, it's the media. i used to trust game journalists as being the only honest journalists out there...but ive learned quite some time ago that i had false hopes. do not trust them.

Much like movie critics. :rolleyes:

Long ago I stopped trusting movie critics and game reviewers. Wasn't there a scandal some years aback about a well known game reviewer found to be taking "bribes" from the competition to give biased reviews? I can't for the life of me recall who it was or when but I do remember it happening.

no idea but movie critics are the same with me. like they didnt give The Book of Eli good reviews but everyone i know who saw it, including myself, loved it. :shrug:

This may be lost on PC gamers, but for a console game NV is incredibly, massively buggy. A lot more so than FO3 was. (I bought FO3 at release and didn't encounter anything other than minor glitches and the occasional freeze when playing for long stretches, although the expansion packs added a whole bundle of more serious problems. Oh, and it was version 1.00 (i.e. unpatched) until I bought the expansions, so spare me the "FO3 was just as bad at release" line, it wasn't on 360.) More time needed to be taken to ensure quality control - would it really have made a huge difference sales-wise if it'd been released a month later? It'd still be in time for Christmas. 'Cause I suspect an extra months' worth of nothing but testing and bug-fixing would've made a huge difference to the quality of the end product. Or, even better, wait until it's finished before it's released, though I appreciate for a developer primarily experienced with PC games this may seem an unlikely and unrealistic objective. Like I say, as a console gamer I'm definitely not used to this level of bug infestation, but I realise this has been the norm in PC games for over a decade now. It's lamentable that console games should seemingly be heading in the same direction.

But let's be constructive in our criticism: what lessons can be learned from this? Should Bethesda have kept a tighter leash on Obsidian? Did they conduct any QA of their own, or did they leave that solely to Obsidian as well? If so, that seems naive, given Obsidian's track record. I would be fascinated to know exactly how much the two companies worked together on this, whether it was just a case of Beth giving Obsidian their engine and assests and telling them to get on with it or if it was a more hands-on approach of the sort employed by Nintendo when operating with second parties like Retro Studios, with regular liasons (and, to be frank, bollockings) to ensure standards were maintained. Either way, we can only hope that lessons have been learned from this and that no-one's reputation has been too badly tarnished.

Incedentally, on reviews: I don't have ￡40 to spend on every new release, so am grateful for the guidance on what I should be spending my hard-earned on. The trick is to find a few sources who are trustworthy and consistent enough for you to be able draw your own conclusions. Personally, I like GamesTM and Gamecentral (now Metro, but they'll always be GC to me), they don't usually send me far wrong.

Really? No offense, but less than two years is not much time to make a game, re-using an engine or not. Sorry, but you're making a lot of incorrect assumptions here.


I've been a PC gamer much longer than most around these forums, and I don't really find most PC games to be all that buggy. In fact, I don't find them to be much buggier than console games (I also have 3 consoles). What you're talking about is compatibility issues, which IMO are not the same thing as bugs. Hardware compatibility issues exist in the PC game world due to the large number of possible hardware configurations, and may be the fault of the game developer or the hardware manufacturer. They're also very difficult to catch in testing...it's nearly impossible to test every combination of software and hardware that might be in someone's system. In my experience just as many console games have bugs as PC games...they just shouldn't have hardware compatibility issues.


I think a lot of people are misinterpreting the reasons the game was released in a buggy state. A patch for a lot of the in-game bugs (over 200 of them) was released for the PC the day after the game was released. Obviously Bethesda and Obsidian knew about these bugs waaay before the game was released. Bethesda, being the publisher and overseer of the project had the power to push back the release date. The question is "why didn't they?"

That said, I'm finding the game to be rather un-buggy so far (30 hours in). I realize that doesn't mean it's not buggy, but I'm yet to see what the all the noise is about. As far as their track record, it's well-known why KotOR II wasn't finished. I personally didn't find NWN2 or Alpha Protocol to be buggy at all. Sure, AP had some weirdness with the cover mechanics, but other than that I didn't see any major bugs in 3 play-throughs. I had NPC companions disappear when changing areas a couple of times in NWN2, but that's within the realm of acceptability is games these days...I didn't find it to be more buggy than an average game. Perhaps it's because I didn't play it until after the first patch? :shrug:

Not to mention his erroneous thinking in that this is "just an expansion pack". Same engine yes, much of the same assets yes, same landscape no, same storyline no, any relationship at all to the capitol wasteland no. With nearly as much, if not more to do than in FO3, this is hardly an expansion pack.

Don't even get me started on that. Game engines get re-used all the time. I get the feeling that a lot of the folks crying "expansion pack!" haven't been gaming for more than a couple of years. It's funny how everybody becomes a games development expert when it comes time to complain about something. :laugh:

No kidding, I started gaming with the original pong console and the Commodore PET. I have seen so many new games come out that were truly nothing but expansions. FONV hardly qualifies.

I understand there’s bound to be glitches and really, in general, I don’t mind that much, I just need to reset, blah blah blah. Games go haywire, I get that.

It does bother me however, when these glitches start messing with my enjoyment of the game.

I kept getting companion glitches at the end of the game of hoover damn. This kind of bummed me out since I really wanted to enjoy the climix of the story, not reload 7 times trying to get a bug to disappear.

In general, not so bad. But if I was a player new to Bethesda RPGs I could see the experience being a little unnerving.

Oh, no, there's no excuse for that. I'm not saying that annoying bugs like that are ok. I'm saying that the game was obviously rushed out the door, evidenced by the rather large day 1 patch we saw on the PC version. Obviously the game was declared "gold" before a ton of known bugs were fixed. All bugs can be fixed with enough time, and I don't doubt they will mostly be fixed (outside of engine bugs that have been around since Oblivion). They should have pushed back the date a month and released a cleaner game.

Sorry, I was perhaps unclear, I didn't mean to imply that NV-level bugginess was the norm for PC games, just that the ability to patch a game after release means that having major bugs at launch is much less of a big deal on PC than consoles (up until this generation of consoles, anwyay). If, say, a Playstation 2 game was released in the not-quite finished state NV is then it would do irreparable damage to both the developer and the publisher's reputation (witness the Driver 3 debacle) and heads would be rolling left, right and centre. The big Japanese console manufacturers in particular remember all too well how the industry was brought to its knees in the early eighties by a glut of poor-quality software that didn't work as it should. But I'm sure you're correct in your distinction between bugs and hardware compatability issues, I have next to no knowledge about this sort of thing (used to be one of the perks of console gaming, you didn't need to...)


Don't get me wrong, I'm not citing maliciousness or anything as the motivation, obviously commercial realites (i.e. "the game's gotta be out for Christmas or the share price plummets!") were the driver here. Though I can't help but feel there's a short-sightedness at work here, I for one will be more wary in future about buying Beth/Obsidian stuff at launch and I suspect I'm not alone.

What a load of cr*p....

The viewpoint of someone coming on a thread about bugs and telling those of us who have problems that we are whiners, or worse, is not a valid or important viewpoint. It's white noise and in many cases rude. I suspect that you misread my initial post, where I asked the moderators to step onto those threads and ditch those that are criticising those who do have glitches.

The fact a the moment is that any thread that attempts to discuss workarounds or fixes gets buried under the endless, and pointless, argument of "I don't have any bugs and it's a great game" vs "My game is bugged to hell so it svcks". Until someone puts a stop to that, we're going to continue going round in circles.

Personally, I think it's a good game, but 150+ saves to get to level 11, and not being close to being killed in any of that time, is ridiculous.

Ah, I see, and agree.


Yep. I'm sure they weighed the pro's and con's of delaying the release and made the appropriate fiscal decision. Just happens to be a disappointing decision for the gamers.


Well, to be fair, every PC game release comes along with some compatibility issues that are really hard to reproduce in QA. That said, a patch containing over 200 fixes was released for the PC on day 1, which tells us that they knew about a lot of bugs before the game went gold. Yes, it's unproductive for people to imply that others aren't having the issues they're having. It's also equally unproductive to catastrophize and exaggerate the issues that do exist, which is probably what is prompting others to interject tales of their notably bug-free experiences. Lucidity and objectivity to the rescue! I think both the folks having issues and those that are not could afford to tone down the rhetoric a bit to avoid such unproductive exchanges, eh?

Then deal with it. It's not against the rules to express one's opinions, even if you find the argument pointless.

@softnerd:

I totally agree, and it's actually 167 saves to level 11 for me, just so you know I understated, and in 3 hours gaming last night it crashed 4 times, and locked up 3.

@heathen:

How do you propose we deal with it? Insult these people as they insult us, or ask for them to be banned for insulting behaviour?

Labelling posters as "...forum trash...", as on one thread, is against the forum rules...

My issue isn't with pointless argument, but with spam contributions for the sack of criticising people with legitimate, albeit at times emotionally worded, problems.

I know that has to be really frustrating. Have you submitted info about what's going on and details about your system config in the troubleshooting forums? (I'm assuming you're on the PC version) Jason Bergman from Bethesda stated that they're watching the forums and collecting information to help with an upcoming patch. Out of curiosity, did you have any issues with Oblivion or Fallout 3? It's weird, but I swear that some of the bugs that were in Oblivion and Fallout 3 and were patched out have come back for New Vegas.

I just had my 4th hard crash since the "patch" and it happened when my guy was walking and fell through a rock after I just killed about 15 of those huge flying insects (sorry cant think of their names) and leveled up. OP, you could have put g4's review and feedback link on to as they also called it the glitchiest game they ever played. Im just so sick of losing a level or an hour of game play because of these issues. I might never pay full price for an obsidian or bethesda game again after this.

Have played 2-3 hours a night since release.

Not a single bug. Not a single crash. Game is far more stable than OBLIVION, NEHRIM (for OBLIVION) and FALLOUT3, which was completely buggered by the time I uninstalled it last August. Same box, same OS install, same drivers (I hardly ever keep drivers updated and tend to keep everything the same for as long as I can, changing only when something is "broken") This is the same box that plays all my other games, also glitch-free.

Wish you guys best of luck.

When F3 came out, I had it from day one, bug free, crash free, freeze free...the bugs in F3 only occurred when I loaded the first four DLC on..and in fact I believe the problems only occurred after Broken Steel.

Apart from the insane frequency of them in FNV, they are pretty much the same problems that occurred after BS, which would stand to reason if they are in the game mechanics/engine.

No major problems in Oblivion at all.

Don't get me wrong, in-game frustration is one thing, but the really aggravating thing is seeing the forums degenerate into a b*tchfight and insults between the 'haves' and 'havenots'. Insults and inflammatory threads shouldn't happen, and should be stomped on as soon as possible. We all know, and those of us who have been around a while have experienced, what happens on a game's release, when the forums are filled with a rush of posters...but that doesn't excuse baiting, insulting, goading or other behaviour on the grounds of 'expressing an opinion'.

"The buggiest game of the decade"

I remember a crap load of other games that were just horrible with bug/gliches & just horrible game play.
I really trust Bethesda & Obsidian they'll fix the bugs sooner or later it takes time do you know how long it takes to make these kind of games hell even the models take god knows how long pluse the landscape & other game mechanics yes there will be bug in them, i do remember games has a word "halo" has a few bugs & gliches but you dont see them QQing about that do ya? just take what those so call gamer sites say as much as a grain sand. Also Bethesda, Obsidian & Blizzard are the only PC game developer/publishers id ever buy from because i know that they make a very good product in the end its the buyers point of view that really matter about the product that they buy right.

yep 30 hrs in no crashes, freezes, a simple dll fix and the released patch, smooth sailing ever since, way better than FO3 :goodjob:

Your lucky, back when I had the first 360 model I played too many hours of Oblivion I had to apologize to family and friends and not one hard crash or major bug. When I played Fallout 3 on my elite model I had only one hard crash after many hours before Bethesda released a patch that fixed the area I had the hard crash in. Now with my slim model 360 ive seen more glitches than I can say but they don't bother me until it starts to hard crash and cause me to lose levels, objects, and forcing me to replay missions. Lastly, the worst posts other than bashing a game for reasons like I don't like it are the posts that state I'm having no problems. You might as well just point at the majority and go haha with your tongue sticking out and then hope the majority doesn't come at you with the pitchforks they are holding.

Wish it was, but it is true many gamers suffer from bugs and glitches in this game. There are complaints all over the net about FONV. Sadly...

I don't think anyone's refuting that statement at all. It is hands down one of the glitchest games of the decade. Was worse than stalker call of pripyat ffs...

I am shocked at all the people who are letting comapnies get away with this. Just because it's software, it is no excuse to release buggy games. All that means is more Quality Assurance should have been done. It is simple as that. Not enough QA was done. When I use to work, QA was top priority. You can loose your job for poor QA. This would never be allowed in the Care industry, Food industry.

Here is a question for you guys now. Would you fly in a plane where Bethesda, or Obsidian wrote the software for the air planes computers? What about the software in your car? Would you trust them? Yes I can understand that there are glitches in the system and all that stuff, but where is the QA testing? On Day One release, bugs were reported, that should have been spotted and never released. This is what I am talking about. It's like companies don't care. They have no respect for us. It's one thing you find a "bug" than 1000 other people can't find, but when 1000s of people encounter this bug within the first week of release, this should have been caught and fixed with the QA.

Now I know alot of bugs are reported from QA or bete testers, but the companies in return just either shrug off the suggestions or don't think they are worth to fix, or can't even bother with it. This should never be acceptable.

So once again, if a patch can fix these things in a months or 2 time, then the game should be held back the month or two time.

I am playing Civilization V. Yes the game is buggy. It also has other problems with it, but now I am not going to wait for a patch and I will just shelf the game now. So I have to suffer because people think it's acceptable to release a buggy game. So now my enjoyment is ruined. If proper time was developed, and proper QA testing was done, many people would be enjoying the product even more.

Yeah, I don't think the people who have 5 straight corrupt saved games are happy because it's ok to release buggy games. I am shure someone who spent 20+ hours in a game, and can't play anymore because of a game breaking bug, that should have been caught with the bete testers or QA.

Again, I understand "bugs" will be present in a game, such as Daggerfall, or Fallout New Vegas. What I don't understand, is how can some of these bugs not been caught in Quality Assurance testing or beta testing. This means games are release too early, and not enough QA testing and beta testing is being done. I am doing the "Come Fly with me" quest now. Now I read that I should stay away from it because it causes a major bug in the game. Well if 1000 people have gotten this bug, how did it pass QA testing and beta testing, if all I am doing is doing the quest?

I am calm. My bloodpressure is not up because of this. I just will not say it's an acceptable practice. Because of this, I do not buy games anymore on release day. The only other game I will buy is TES V for the 360. And yes, I expect there to be many many bugs in that game. I guess I am like you guys now. If there is no bugs in TES V, I will be thinking something is wrong, that there is no bugs in a Bethesda game.

But that is the problem there. How can you be Todd Howard and be proud of making games that are so buggy? I hear in his previews, before a game is released on how proud he is of his games. So if you are so proud of what you make, how for example you can be proud of making a product where you have the Vampire Bug in the PS3 version of Oblivion and not even fix it? Again poor QA. There is no excuse for poor QA.