Bethesda needs to come out with a civil war expansion DLC so we can stop bickering and speculating over it. Although I must admit, Good times.... Good times....

A bigger and better equivalent of Broken Steel would be greatly appreciated.

Yeah. As it stands, a lot of this thread is simply conjecture. We simply don't know enough.

Respectively, the Civil War threads are one of the most actively discussed and viewed these forums, alongside the 'Skyrim is a dumbed-down, non-RPG' ones. I would think that it would take a while since they have to make a canon ending that isn't affected by the side that the player chooses. It might even be the last main DLC for the game.

I'd like to take a moment to thank everyone who posted on this topic. I'm happy to say that the debate (as far as I can tell) remained civil, and hope that it will continue to remain so for as long as this thread accepts new posts.

Both sides have argued their points admirably and I deeply appreciate the lengths some of you went to to provide evidence/in-game accounts/lore to back up your views.

Gotta wonder where the people at Bethesda stand with this? Are they as equally divided as we seem to be? Then again, they know more than we do (right?) so maybe it's a much clearer decision.

Knowing how offices usually settle matters, I am going to assume they are going to have the largest nerf war ever recorded.

So you're blaming Ulfric for the dragons now? The prophecy says "when the snow tower lies kingless, bleeding"... it takes two sides to make a war. If the empire had accepted the outcome of Ulfric's duel with Torygg and let Skyrim secede, there would have been no prophecy. Not that I think this line of reasoning actually worth discussing.

*sigh* As long as we've been having these discussions and the same old canards get thrown out. No one, not even Ulfric, envisions Skyrim defeating the Dominion alone. And the legion with all their supposedly superior whatsits- partly owing to those Nords you're backhandedly dissing- didn't defeat them before.

We don't know how long ago they've been purging, and the inclusion of Malborn in the story can't be an accident. Between him and The Rising Threat, it makes me think we'll see resistance at home play a role in the Thalmor's inevitable downfall.

I wouldn't count on it. It's pretty easy to execute people on the spot for looking at you wrong in a police state.

Which is why it is a civil war and not provincial war. Many of the Nords see Ulfrics rebelliion as little more than usurping the throne and weakening Skyrim, while others see him as the rightfull High King. I generaly agree that Skyrim-Cyrodiil-High Rock > Skyrim.

Yes please.

I don't think there is a right answer to this question. I have yet to complete the game so I know even less than most of you, but my impression is that Ulfric is sick of foreign influence dominating his country, and taking away his people's freedoms. Sure, they can have their private shirnes to Talos due to the jarls turning a blind eye, but they are liable to be arrested for it and that's his point, and it's a valid one. Is he right to drown Skyrim in blood? From his view, no doubt. He's fighting for all the religious and civil freedoms of not just him and his fellow Nords, but all the generations to come. He will win freedom, or die trying. No price is too great.

But if you're a Nord or other resident of Skyrim who doesn't really care about the right to worship Talos, and you just want to keep your family safe and put food on your table, why not side with the Imperials? So the question becomes - what's really important.. peace now, or Skyrim's independence and freedom forever?

Then, of course, you have the counter-argument that Ulfric might lose and the oppression of the Thalmor could become even worse. Possibly. But I think appeasing the Thalmor and hoping they become more lenient over time, that is not the right answer. Who can predict the future?

Ulfric is playing right into the hands of the Thalmor. A country emerging from civil war is at its weakest. Ulfric chose to do so when the Thalmor were gathering their forces, and they weren't exactly hiding their expansionist intentions. If Ulfric wins, Skyrim will be severely weakened from the civil war, and will have lost all of its connections to the Empire. Easy pickings for the Thalmor, considering that the Empire would do nothing to stop the Thalmor with a Stormcloack victory in the civil war.

If anything, the Empire would root for the Thalmor to take Skyrim in the hopes of the Thalmor spreading themselves too thin and leaving themselves open to counter-attack.

Surely, theThalmor cannot invade Skyrim without spreading themselves too thin. It's on the opposite side of Tamriel to the Summerset Isles. And I have no doubt that Ulfric would be able to make an arrangement with Hammerfell - and maybe Cyrodil as well, surely they cannot be so dense they do not realise who the real enemy is.

Ulfric is dense enough to attack the Empire instead of the Thalmor, and the Empire is still bound by the WGC.

OK, I should complete the main quest lines before I comment further

If they did that it would be very foolish. They would be all but surrounded, with Thalmor held territory to the north and south.

The Stormcloaks have waited 30 years for the empire to grow some gonads. No sign of them yet, only increasingly corrupt misapplication of imperial law to benefit Cyrodiil's interests. Time for new management.

my RPG view

you are the dragonborn the only one of this era since septimus himself
You are destined to become more than just a dragon killer and the hero that defeats alduin if you talk to the greybeards and read some of the books you find
that is how my character experience this whole quest, after all this questing you should be the highking if you are a nord that is nand certainly not ulfric , who is in my opinion a powerhungry racist
Nobody really knows why the empire accepted the peace treaty and the relative harsh conditions , but i feel that you as dragonborn are destined to overturn that peace and return the empire back to its golden age it was a nord that created the empire it will be a nord that puts it back on the map

No, Ulfric will be High King. Dovahkiin? You are to be something more, perhaps you are to follow the path of Talos himself.

The concept of military alliance seem to be avoided by empire supporters.

I'd rather fight as a Canadian soldier in the Canadian army with American, British, French, etc. soldiers in their respective armies by my side, than fight in one big fat empire called NATO.

Don't underestimate the ability for a more "national" army to get more recruits. Would you join a "NATO" army or would you rather join your own country's army? I'd argue an alliance of independent nations can be stronger than a big fat empire, especially when there's a common ennemy to all of those allied nations.

Doesn't hide the fact that ulfric is a fat powerhungry racist
your character as the dragonborn is so much more worthy to become highking than him , you can even defeeat him and his whole damn stormcloak army on your own

Mmmm....

Okay, here's proof that Ulfric is racist, and has an agenda...

He relocates people of a differing race and belief system, no matter how well they integrate, into a ghetto, and utilises their differences as a means to reinforce his own position of power...further, he 'tolerates' or ignores, if you prefer, discriminatory and victimising behaviour against those people.

I just wonder how things would look if Ulfric had a railway system...would he have priests of Talos making the selections?

Well the Dragonborn could take on the Thalmor by himself, using this logic.

And bring me one proof that Ulfric is racist, just one. Nobody can. While the Empire openly sides with Nazis - they say they don't, but in practice they do. Having a few nationalistic drunken Nords yell a few racist slurs, while despicable, is not in the same ball park as supporting an institutionalized racist organization who hunt down, arrest, torture and execute people because of their religious belief. Seriously, the "racist" card played by empire supporters is getting ridiculous.

Today's empires, tomorrow's ashes. It's inevitable. There are alwasy too many internal tensions in empires. They always fall. Now is the time for this empire to fall and an alliance of free nations of men to take its place.

Have you never done it from a neutral point? OK. yeah the first he does is want to kick the Thalmor, fair enough. Once the Thalmor is gone . He starts demanding territory for the ceasefire and thats what really spirals the conferance into almost failing again IMO. I still don't think things are as cut and dried as you seem to think they are.


Wow! I can really say the Stormcloaks and Ulric really really clicked with you even more than they failed with me. I will say I can roleplay well enough to do a Stormcloak character, Have you ever tried the empire or is it just too heinous for you?


As an aside wouldn't it be mega cool if as the Dragonborn , legendary voice master, you could voice your opinion on whether Ulrfic's voice tactic was a fair one in his duel with the old high King ( dodged having to spell that one)?

Agreed. Whether in an expansion pack for Skyrim or in TES:VI, I get the feeling that the player character will be fomenting dissent from within Thalmor territory.

....Canada has an army? I thought it just relied on the fact that the US won't let any hostile country attack and occupy Canada or Mexico, because it'd give the hostile country a landing point to move ground troops into position to attack the US.