Nords can't be fair weather friends. The weather in Skyrim is never fair.

Ulfric would have rebelled against the Empire regardless of how the Empire handled the situation. He wasn't just going to secede and rule half of Skyrim either, he wanted the entire province, including the half that is loyal to the Empire.

As for Alduin, Ulfric says this in Sovngarde if one sides with the Legion:


I'm not saying he knew or even could have known, but it seems the rebellion may have in fact given Alduin the momentum he needed.

If you don't think the Legion can defeat them, I don't see how you expect a much more disorganized and more poorly informed alliance of some of the same people could.

They both want territorial concessions.

Yes, I have a character who sided with the imperials.

Impossible to say for sure. He was talking about Skyrim's independence, but it was the Markarth Incident that pushed him over the edge.

All the souls caught in the mist are in despair. Legate Rikke is lamenting over the war, too. Like I said, it takes two sides to make a war. The imperials did not have to fight.

Because I consider it plain that the legion's organization and resources aren't doing the job. Instead they're just weakening humanity's cause as Cyrodiil flails and bargains to keep its hold on what provinces remain under its boot.

You're misinformed. Go read about the Red Year and the Decree of Monument before you start spinning Auschwitz scenarios.

As General Tullius said, it was Ulfric who started this war and plunged Skyrim into Chaos. The Imperials were acting perfectly reasonably in reacting to assist the loyalist Nords in opposing the Stormcloak rebellion.

Ulfric started this unnecessary conflict. It's his fault, not the Empire's, that Skyrim is in chaos and that humanity is weakening itself. If the Empire didn't send help and simply bent over for Ulfric to take the province, plenty of Nords would have still died opposing him, and certainly far more than the Thalmor Justiciars could have killed.

Well that's not a biased opinion at all...

You might as well say the empire started it with the WGC, and by not recognizing the outcome of Ulfric's duel with Torygg and allowing the Nords to choose their king their own way. Torygg was the imperial representative in Skyrim, and he accepted Ulfric's duel. If the imperials had not interfered, it would have gone to a moot. That might have resulted in civil war anyway, but we'll never know.

And had Ulfric openly asked Torygg to abandon the Empire he might have done that, but we'll never know because it didn't happen.

I think it is too much focus in how things should have been done instead of what did actually happen when it comes to these discussions.
The Empire shouldn't have accepted the harsh terms of the WGC.
The Jarl of Markarth shouldn't have offered free worship in exchange for taking back the city.
Ulfric shouldn't have started a war on his own people.
The Empire shouldn't have branded Ulfric a criminal so fast and let them hold the moot.

Personally I believe it is more important to see what we can do with the options we have, mainly because the fact that Ulfric was wrongly imprissoned won't decide if he will be a good or bad leader for Skyrim. I think Elisif by herself will likely be a mediocre leader for a few years, but she will have the aid of Legate Rikke and General Tullius as well as her own court and I believe she will be hardened into the role.
If the Empire wins there are currently three nations allied against the Thalmor plus Hammerfell. Sounds better than having having Hammerfell, Cyrodiil-High Rock and Skyrim, with the two later being on generally hostile terms as far as I understood it. Sure, it might be a better solution, but more risky.
Even though I believe the Thalmor is to weak to defeat Cyrodiil alone at this point I still do not want to play my hand on the wildcard Ulfric Stormcloak. Why gamble on getting a King when you can guarantie a Queen?

Oh, you're one of those people. svcks for you.

Ever heard of the Battle of Vimy Ridge? Look it up sometime.

While I was in the US Navy, I had the privledge to work along side the Canadians (along with the NZ, Aussie and British military)... and I thought that I'd be honored to stand by their side anyday that they need us to.

You're pretty invincible about not hearing what I said so this is my last shot before I go kill lots of stormcloaks because of our discussion. yes, both did want territorial concessions but the Empire's demands were in response to Ulfric's demands. Do you think it would have come up at all if Ulfirc hadn't started it. You obviously thing so and I just don't.


killing Ulfric is one of the most satisfying moments I've had it any game and now I really want to go do it again. Thanks for refueling my passion.

I support the legion becaus they think long term. Stormcloaks only think short term and don't care what happens in the long run untill it bites them in the [censored] and than they blame it on someone else

I love these threads and always finish reading them with the certainty that players/fans spend much more time worrying over Lore than Beth ever did

As far as I can see, the Civil War in Skyrim is religious. Having personally clensed The Reach, for the Emperor Mede I, in exchange for the right to worship the Nord god Talos, Ulfric is (unsurprisingly) extremely upset when the Emperor's son signs a treaty with the Thalmor, banning Talos worship and granting the Thalmor access to Skyrim to stamp it out. Whether Ulfric has other personal aims - and whether he is racist - is neither here nor there is terms of why - for public consumption, at least - the war is being fought. If the Empire cannot stick to its word and allow Talos worship (as agreed), then the Stormcloaks will see that it is (by over thowing the Empire).

This is not much different than the Redguards of Hammerfell, who agrieved at the WGC, throw out the Thalmor (and sign a treaty) whilst also severing ties with the Empire. Imperials believe that the Thalmor - while not happy at the loss of Hammerfelll - are molified that the Redguards will also no longer support the Empire. It seems fair to assume, at the very least, that the Empire believes the Thalmor are persuing a strategy of Divide-and-Conquer. The Empire's strength was the unification of the Human Race, that it is divided is only good for the (self proclaimed) Elven Government. This is what horrifies Imperial supporters about the Civil War (whether they are Nord, or otherwise)

But, the thing to remember, when relying on Lore - for anything - is that a book is written by someone and that someone may well have a personal and racial bias.

The Great War Review is written by an Imperial Commander (probably a Redguard), from eye witness accounts, stolen documents and interegation of prisoners; little of that could be said to provide 100% undisputible truth. But he does impress on the reader the heroic part played by General Jonna and the Nord Legions, in retaking the Imperial City (in particular, blocking the Thalmors' escape to the south and leading to the occupying army being completely destroyed).

"Nords are not fair weather friends", I took to be a reference to the fact that much Nord blood is spilled in what appeared, at the time, to be a futile effort at regaining control of Cyrodiil.

In the end, Ulfric appears to want what the Redguards have won - independance from both the Thalmor and the Empire (which has failed to live up to its promises and protect the traditional Nord way of life and worship). However, many Nords - who themselves may have fought and their kin may have died (The Great War is very recent history, less than 30 years have passed since the signing of the WGC) - to see the Empire continue, will not support what they see as just another rag-tag and power hungry war lord making a grab for the throne of their country, while jepodising Human power in wider Tamriel.

Facsinating stuff. Well argued all

I guess I'm supposed to care about this. lol

Do you really think Tullius is there just to say hello? They both want concessions and advantage, it doesn't matter who speaks first or loudest. And again, the whole cease fire scene is a sham anyway, a complete waste of time to pacify Balgruuf. They all know it. They're just humoring you.

Have fun storming the castle.

Good post, couple of problems with it though. Ulfric went to Markarth to reclaim the Jarl's throne after the Concordat was already signed by Mede II. In desperation, the deposed Jarl of Markarth offered to Ulfric restoration of open Talos worship even under the Concordat, for purging the city's Forsworn elements and restoring him to the throne. However, he had no real ability to override the treaty so it couldn't be allowed. Though the Jarl messed up more than Ulfric did, a promise from a Jarl would always be superseded by Imperial treaty law. It was after the Markarth Incident that the Thalmor sent the Justicars to enforce the treaty, whereas the Empire had simply ignored the precence of Talos worship before then. Also, Talos is not just a Nordic god, but the first Emperor of the Third Era and the Imperial god Tiber Septim.

I don't agree with the Empire being a solely for unifying the human race either, it used to unite all of Tamriel. It unites people of all the races under one rulership, Cyrodiil is (or at least was) a very diverse province. Elves and beastfolk are part of the Empire too, not every Altmer agrees with the Thalmor, Bosmer and Khajiit are seen as inferior servants to the Thalmor, and the Dunmer and Orcs are far too disassociated with mainstream High Elven culture to be allies of there's. The Argonians are alien in comparison to every culture, but some live and make their homes in the Empire as well.

Nice catch

"The Empire and the son of the deposed Jarl promised Ulfric Stormcloak free worship of Talos in exchange for retaking The Reach." - is what player interpted Lore says ...

Arrianus Arius, Imperial Scholar (and, to my mind, never a man whose word should be taken at face value), has this to say: "We allowed them to worship Talos, in full violation of the White-Gold Concordat with the Aldmeri Dominion (which recognizes the elven belief that Talos, as a human, cannot be one of the Divines). In jeopardizing the treaty that so many sacrificed for during the Great War, the Empire was wrong. But what choice did they have, I ask you? Against the Bear of Markarth, Ulfric Stormcloak, "no" is not an answer."

You are correct, though; Markarth was in the year following the end of the War and the WGC ... So, the Empire is part of the agreement with Ulfric and is even more at fault for putting Ulfric in an impossible situation. Again, this is very much like the Redguard situation.

True, but he is a god of Mankind and - for many Nords at least - appears to be their main god.

The most interesting part of it all, for me. The Empire certainly proclaims itself as for everyone. But few deeds are done by it in support of everyone. It might be better to say that the Empire is for anyone who supports the Emperor.

Yes ... and no.

As for not all Elves supporting the Thalmor. True, but then only that simulates how things work in the Real World, it is there to try to move the races away from straight-up stereotypes.

Eleven leadership (Wood Elf included) appears to (however, in some cases, grudglingly) support the Thalmor-led government. And the Thalmor do appear to be turning Tamriel into an Elves v Human conflict. Orcs ... Who are probably best described as Mer ... Would - it seems - probably support whichever side promised them a proper homeland.

Khajiit and Argonians - All of the beast races are looked down on by humans and elves (even Orcs) alike. Quite probably because much ancient literature hints heavily that they were the aboriginals who were displaced by Mer and Man

The Khajiit (leadership) supports the Thalmor because of their claim of ending the Void Nights. It is hinted (by Imperial writings!) that they did no such thing. Were that to be the case, there is not much evidence to be found to support the theory that Khajiit would continue their support for the Thalmor (although some scholars - and Khajiit writings - hint that Khajiit and Elf may have common lineage ... And so maybe there are other ... unwritten, as yet ... reasons?).


Nice response, by the way

I'd prefer to see the empire driven out of Skyrim and the worshipping of Talos unbanned, I hate the empire, but there's a lot about Ulfric that I dislike, such as the fact that he doesn't like races that aren't nords and that he mostly just cares for himself.

Read up on the history of german politics and medicine, mid 1920's through to 1939...it's small steps leading to big ones.

In particular, seek out a text named 'The Nazis Doctors', it provides fairly in depth background to the medical and social aspects of the process.

They had their apologists, too.

In that case, yes it is.

Sorry OP :/ Should the thread be locked?

hello guys, i prefer the empire and hate the stormcloaks

what do you prefer? oh and btw. this is not another empire vs. stormcloaks thread!

I have a degree in German history, but thanks for the tip. You're still wrong.