I would really hesitate to point to Riften as a good example of social order. A more natural integration seems to have worked better, but that still doesn't make Ulfric a racist. The Decree of Monument is 200 years before his time. It is possible that the most staunchly nationalistic Dunmer are the ones who ended up in Windhelm, and that they are the ones who insisted on having a separate enclave. You are aware of the Dunmer's tendency to xenophobia, yes? Ambarys is a good example, and I'm sure it's no coincidence that he's the one who complains the loudest about the Nords.

Your "somehow I doubt" is just speculation. It may be true that pogroms break out, or that Ulfric cracks down on the Dunmer if he's provoked, or some other such scenario, but that remains to be seen. There's no evidence yet that he's any more racist than anyone else in Tamriel.

The Stormcloak racist argument will never be won because you cannot prove that Ulfric is a racist. However, you can prove that the Empire is under the thumb of the Thalmor, who share the "superior race" sentiment of the Nazis. Any racism Ulfric displays pales in comparison to that of the Thalmor, and the Empire is merely the pawn of the Thalmor, maintained in Skyrim for stability. Since the civil war has begun and this stability has been lost, the Thalmor have no reason to leave the Empire in control, so if the civil war had not ended so quickly, they most likely would have simply knocked out the Empire and annexed Skyrim anyways.

Well, you're certainly right that the dunmer have their own historical problems with xenophobia. I guess in the end it boils down to how you as an individual interpret the information we have about Ulfric. Personally, I do think the evidence is clear, and I wouldn't hesitate to call Ulfric racist. But when it gets to this point I think neither of us will change the other's mind, so... impasse!

I was all ready to go back to the game and blast you with dozens of quotes but actually there is nothing he himself says ( although he's kind of pycho about the jarl of Whiterun) . It could be just that many of both his followers and detractors think he is a Nord supremist. I don't think ether of us can uncatorgorically claim they're right. That's actually pretty good writing.


I think both Ulfric and Tullius are pretty passionate and short sighted but Ulfric was much more demanding if you start out neutral and Starts the conference by demands rather than just a simple ceasefire then thing spiral out of control. I think lots depends on how you react to their and their followers personalites as to how you perceive things, Again good writing,


It was pretty obnoxious to bring Elewen but maybe he thought he had to. Both my son and I made her leave.

The only racist thing I can point to without it comming from someone with a political reason to make him look bad is that one of the Argonians on the Windhelm docks claim he is the one who forced them out of the city. Ulfric is certainly pro-Nord, but too what extend he is racist is debatable. And yes, I know it might be because the Dunmer/Argonian issue, but judging from their racial relations in the game and lack of given reason for the decision I doubt it.

Actually, Ulfric instigated Thalmor intervention when he began to worship Talos openly following the Markath incident (whether Ulfric or Ingmund is to blame is open to debate, but both men should have known that this went directly against the WGC, and Ulfric should have known that Ingmund, as the powerless song of a deposed Jarl of one mere hold, had no legal power to enforce such a violation of a law that was in effect in the whole Empire).

As I said before, do not confuse Thalmor forces with Imperial intent. The Empire is not the driving force behind the outlaw of Talos worship, and I have no idea where you got the idea that the Empire is somehow using the Thalmor to their advantage. Imperial forces have no control over Thalmor agents, who are allowed free movement under the terms of the WGC (much to my distaste, might I add).

In fact, it's interesting you suggest that the Empire are using the Thalmor against Ulfric, given that:

Edit:
I dispute this; prove it, as you are that confident you are able to. Their agents are allowed free movement through the Empire, a token that was granted to the Aldmeri Dominion in the White Gold Concordat to secure peace after a war which utterly decimated Cyrodiil and the Imperial Legion, a peace which was arguably necessary to rebuild Imperial defenses in the face of another Thalmor incursion - one which probably still will come.

The Empire and the Thalmor are enemies, make no mistake. It's simply an unfortunate political reality that the Thalmor are currently allowed freedom of action with Imperial territory. Don't mistake this for Thalmor control over the Empire.

Something you might find interestig is that because the Thalmor value the Civil War so much and they do not want an Imperial victory because it will hurt their position in Skyrim one can doubt how "under the thumb" the Empire really is.

If the Thalmor was as powerful as they try to appear they would probably ignore the Civil War and attack or give enough hidden aid to the Stormcloak so the Empire would be divided then attack Cyrodiil. However, they seem to be willing to possibly antagonize the Empire just to make the war continue so the only logical conclution is that they do not have as much influence in the Empire as they need and they lack the military strength to win another war.
Why would they attack? Well, their longterm plan is to destroy humankind once and for all to unmake the world. So why wait if you know you win and loosing people doesn't matter when you do?

You admit then that the Empire is nothing more than a pawn in the Thalmor's control. They are useless to Skyrim, only a minor hindrance to Thalmor invasion of Skyrim. A united Skyrim would be far stronger than a war ridden collection of holds. The Empire is dead, the posing emperor is dead, it is time for Skyrim to relieve itself of its onus on finances and its weakening of Skyrim's potential strength as a military power. Long lived the Empire, but now its time has passed, in Skyrim and in Tamriel.

Don't be naive. The Thalmor are waging a war against the world. Skyrim does not have the resources or strategical value that Cyrodil had. There is no reason for the Thalmor to jump into a conflict to take an icy wasteland when they need to conserve troops for the other nations they oppose. They are waiting for Skyrim to be as weak as possible to take it, but it most likely is not their next target, considering there are far more valuable territories to be taken. As for the strength of the Empire, it has already been defeated in its homeland, it can hardly hope to survive in a full scale war in a territory such as Skyrim. A united front of Nord holds without the Empire would be far stronger than a war ridden icy scattering of townships funding a dying empire, the weakness the Thalmor look to exploit is the transitional stage after the war, but if the Nords can mobilize fast enough, they can make an invasion of Skyrim and unprofitable venture for the Thalmor, which would deter them from invading, considering their imperialistic tendencies.

Actually, I just edited in a retort to that bold claim into my post.
A united Tamriel would be far stronger than a war-ridden handful of provinces.
The Empire is certainly weaker without the Septims, but if not for the Imperial Legion's defenses from and retaliation against a brutal and unexpected Thalmor invasion, the individual provinces of Tamriel would likely have fallen. I obviously disagree that the Empire is dead, and I'm not sure if the death of the Emperor is canonical or not (I can assure you it hasn't happened in my game).

Skyrim's potential as a military power is quite well utilised by the Imperial Legion, thank you very much, as seen with the excellent use of General Jonna's Legion (mostly comprised of Nords) in the Battle of the Red Ring. Rather, it is Ulfric who is weakening the military might of Skyrim, by dividing it and playing into the Thalmor's hands.

As for the Empire being a financial burden on Skyrim; where exactly did you learn this from? Unless it's speculation, in which case allow me to speculate back - under the Empire, Skyrim's citizens would be taxed, yes, but they'd also enjoy the benefits of Imperial defenses, Imperial infrastructure and Imperial trade, all of which would be financed by tax revenue from across the Empire, meaning that if you lost the Empire, you would lose a lot of income.

Not to sound offensive, but I consider this baseless speculation.
Tell that to Lord Naarifin.
See, all those Nord holds, they were already united before Ulfric began shaking things up in his power grab for the throne. As for the 'stronger' claim, seeing as we're speculating again, I would argue that a disciplined military structure with professional soldiers such as the Empire's Legions would fare much better in combat than loose collections of ragtag peasants and deserting veterans that seem to make up Stormcloak forces.

Skyrim is weakest while the war continues. The Empire has been proven to be unable to resist Thalmor, as can be seen in the capture of their capital. The Battle of Red Ring postponed the Empire's eventual defeat by spurring the signing of the the White-Gold Concordat, because the war became too much of a financial burden on the Thalmor. However, the concessions the Empire made in Skyrim, such as allowing Thalmor laws and officers into the midst of their territory, attest to the Thalmor's strong influence on the Empire. The "army of ragtag peasants," if you support them, can defeat the Empire, making them a stronger force in Skyrim, making them more able to stand up to the Thalmor in battle as a stronger military force. As for a "united Tamriel," that is like saying that if Rome had conquered the entire world it wouldn't have collapsed, which is highly unlikely and never could have happened. Finally, as a financial onus, the Empire has established its own palace in Solitude and taxes residents to support an army which then spends all its resources fighting the residents that refuse to pay the taxes and refuse to be ruled by the Empire. This "imperial trade" is monopolized by a single company which reaps the benefits of the trade and leaves the suppliers of its trade goods in destitution. This company is also highly corrupt, if you have done the Thieves Guild quest which deals with it. In addition, imperial trade is a mere shadow of what it used to be, with lost territory and no hub of commerce (the Imperial City).

When is it naive to actually try to see the both sides of the situation?
The Empire wasn't defeated, the Dominions army was decimated, but the Empire didn't have the resources to continue fighting even though they tecnicly had the military advantage. An army without supplies is doomed to fail though, so peace was negotiated. Titius highly overestimated the Thalmor which is the reason for the terms of the WGC. If the Empire was defeated it wouldn't exist.
A prepared and resource rich Skyrim would be very hard to take yes, but if Ulfric wins Skyrim will be weak for a time until they can amas the numbers needed to fight a war. It is only recently he gained enough troops to actually go to war in within Skyrim openly.
Having the Imperial Legions stocked with veteran Nord soldiers in addition to the normal legionaires sound more dangerous to me than the Nord soldiers alone.
Taking Skyrim cannot be done before Cyrodiil or Hammerfell have fallen simply because of geography. Marching through Cyrodiil with armies will provoke another war, while sending large forces over sea will provoke Hammerfell to attack.
The Stormcloaks lack of established intelligence agency will make them voulnerable for the same reasons you claim the Empire is.
Also a detail that is relevant is that elves have a much slower reproduction than humans and is therefor unlikely to be able to defeat even Cyrodiil alone unless it is weakened by a long and bloody civil war with Skyrim which is why they do not want a Stormcloak victory either. They couldn't even finish of the Empire at its alltime low in military strength with all advantages they could ask for. When the Empire now are prepared for war they likely do not stand a chance.

He's psycho because he calls Balgruuf "a true Nord" and says he'll eventually come around? He's wrong about that, but not psycho.

Wanting Nords to be able to rule themselves is not necessarily "Nord supremacist." And if you're going to go that far, you might as well call everyone in Tamriel a "___ supremacist" because they all think they're better than others and want to gain the upper hand in terms of power and territory. One thing that incidentally makes the Nords' generosity to the Dunmer so surprising. The imperials think they have the right to rule over the whole continent, what does that make them?

Demanding that the Thalmor not have a place at the table. Not an unreasonable demand. Ulfric's passion is part of his character, and it could be a weakness, but I don't see that here. The whole thing is a big waste of time anyway.

I'm pretty sure Tullius was running psy ops on Ulfric and trying to provoke him. As far as that goes, Ulfric was pretty self controlled. He could have pulled out a sword and given Elenwen her due.

Because they're allowing them to kidnap and hold Talos worshippers, they give them bases of operation, and force the jarls to kiss up to them or become traitors.

They think he can be useful to them. That doesn't mean it's true. It certainly doesn't throw a bad light on Ulfric's character as you said.

Just a quick noob-question...is there somewhere I can read compiled lore of Tamriel?

Thanks.

The Thalmor's sudden invasion caught the Empire off-guard, and so it was the element of suprise that allowed the Thalmor to advance as much as they had. The Imperial city was promptly recaptured, and literally all Thalmor forces in Cyrodiil were destroyed. So no, I don't agree with you there.
I don't know where you got the whole financial burden aspect from. The Thalmor army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed. As to the WGC's concessions, they don't point to Thalmor influence in the Empire (seriously? How could you even think that they'd hold any influence whatsoever with the Empire after ransacking Cyrodiil?) but rather to Titus Mede II's (justified if controversial) desire for peace. After the horrendous losses of the Great War, I think that swallowing a bitter treaty for the sake of peace and recuperation is worth it.
...What? That didn't really make sense, and how each group would fare against the Thalmor is speculation. The only factor was can use to even measure such a baseless claim is the Legion's performance in the Great War, and let me remind you that, despite being caught off guard, it brought in reinforcing Legions from Hammerfell and Skyrim rather quickly and utterly destroyed the invading force.
I don't understand what you mean by that or how it related to Tamriel. Surely you wouldn't argue that the Empire before the Civil War, encompassing Cyrodiil, Skyrim and High Rock, with resources shared between the three provinces, wouldn't be weaker than those three provinces and Hammerfell facing the Thalmor threat alone and divided instead of united under the Imperial banner?
Where does it say that the Blue Palace is an Imperial structure? It houses the High King, leader of all Nords. The one who was murdered in an unfair duel, remember? This entire tax business is murky, because we really have no primary information on it, and how does the East Empire Company leave its suppliers in destitution? Surely Tamrielic-wide trade, eased by Imperial control, would benefit all parties involved? We don't have much information on this though, so you and I both are speculating. I can't say I've played the Thieves questline, so I can't comment on that (no spoilers please!), but I assure you the Imperial City still stands strong.

Look, I'm obviously pro-Imperial and you're pro-Stormcloak, but at least I'm trying to look at both sides of the argument. For example, I never argued that Ulfric is a racist, although I do think he allows too much leeway against Mer in Windhelm. I also strongly dislike the White Gold Concordat, but I understand that, unpleasant as it was, it was borne out of necessity. Things aren't black and white, you know. Neither the Empire nor the Stormcloaks are pantomime villains or heroes.

Edit:
No offense, but I think the Thalmor know what's useful for themselves more than you or I.

As for the character part, I'd refer you to this part:

http://www.imperial-library.info/

I would suggest the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore; it's quick and easy to understand. If you want to learn from the sources themselves, try some of the books suggested http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1355777-suggested-books-to-read/

Or, like the above post says, The Imperial Library.

"An army without supplies is doomed to fail." The Empire lost its capital, its supplies are dwindling, it is forced to leech off of nations like Skyrim to support its armies. As long as the Empire is in Skyrim there will not be peace because the general public does not accept Imperial rule. It is like the US trying to impose democracy on Iraq. There will never be acceptance of this government because the people do not accept it. As long as we continue to try to shove American democracy down their throats they will fight us off because we have no right to be there. The Empire has no right to rule Skyrim. The people will always resist Imperial rule, and a united Stormcloak army is stronger than the Empire fighting a civil war. As you said, wars will be waged just to get to Skyrim, which will allow plenty of time for Ulfric to establish stability and bulk up for the potential war.

Essentially this argument comes down to how you interpret past events and speculation. There are aspects of the lore that support each side of the argument because Bethesda wanted the two sides to be equally matched and wanted us to be unsure of what future games will hold. I don't think we are going to get anywhere arguing interpretations of lore, some of which has questionable veracity, and speculating about the future. Let us agree to disagree.

That's not accurate. First of all, the Imperial City is just fine, and you're making unevidenced claims about dwindling supplies and the Empire leeching off of its provinces. (This is slightly irrelevant, but I would assume that Skyrim, a largely inhospitable province with seemingly little arable land, would benefit largely from Cyrodiilic farming, especially from the Nibenay Basin). Oh, and the Empire's been ruling over Skyrim for millenia now; it's no short-lived occupation, as with the example of Iraq you brought up. The Empire has governed Skyrim, amongst other provinces, safely and effectively for thousands of years. I'd argue that the current unrest is caused by unhappiness over the WGC mixed with Ulfric's opportunism.
Cheers

Only half in Skyrim resists Imperial rule. The other half ends up supporting it.

And I feel it is better for a combined Cyrodiil-Skyrim Legion army to defeat the Thalmor in southern Cyrodiil than for a Stormcloak army to defeat the Thalmor in southern Skyrim. Better for both Cyrodiil and Skyrim.

I chose neither ideally. Both sides seem unable to see the big picture. The story is presented such that most of the main players, (Ulfric, Tullius and Emporer Titus) are strong leaders in some regards but each suffer from serious personal character flaws that tragically influence the people in their care. Frankly I find Jarl Balgruuf the most fit to rule Skyrim given what is revealed to us about his character. Having played through both sides, only through supporting the Empire am I presented with an opportunity to protect Balgruuf and ultimately, IMHO, give Skyrim the best chance at a decent future. I would have liked the opportunity to dialogue with Balgruuf (after becoming Thane) to resist both the Empire and Stormcloaks.

The Thalmor also brag a lot and I don't take all their pomposity seriously. In any event, just because Ulfric's rebellion serves their interest for a time doesn't cast bad light on his character. If it does, then the empire shares the blame for pursuing the civil war rather than letting Skyrim secede.

You're right, I don't see breaking under torture as a character fault. In fact I see his having survived something like that as a plus in his favor. When he talks about the suffering of the Nords and seeing the empire throw away what they bled for in the Great War, he's not talking out of theory. He wasn't sitting up at High Hrothgar while that was going on.

But even if we suppose he was willing to betray Cyrodiil to save his skin... the imperials are willing to openly betray their own citizens- the Blades, then Hammerfell, and the Talos cult- for their own interests. You've been arguing yourself that the WGC was a necessary evil. So once again, if you're going to blacken Ulfric with such things, what goes for him goes doubly for the imperials.

I think the only thing we can assume is that people are selfish scum.