High Rock doesn't back the Forsworn. I meant the Western Reach, which is part of High Rock currently and a disputed territory.

The Forsworn ARE the natives of the Reach, and a distinct racial group. In the Creation Kit they are Bretons.

Umm...the legitimate emperors are all dragonborn.

So?

Truly I only side with no one or with The Stormcloaks and that is only because of their right to independence from The Empire.

Skyrim would be better off with neither faction claiming the holds. Indeed, I myself would prefer the akaviri tsaesci to return and sort
things out. If not them then the fair rule of the Dragon Priests of Atmora instead. The nord's land just needs some old influence, I say.

It felt rather obvious to me, but to clarify... He segregates the dark elves into a cross between a ghetto and a shanty-town, making them unable to properly integrate with the rest of the city, which results in their reputation as alien and suspicious in the townspeople's eyes (remember the lovely speech those two big strong loyal stormcloak Nords give a bewildered defenceless dunmer woman when you first enter Windhelm? Real classy, guys). Ulfric talks about fighting for the men, women and children of Skyrim as if they're the only ones who matter. It's perfectly clear that the Stormcloak rebellion is an excuse for him to act on his prejudices and - bonus! - get a throne from it at the end. Sure, he may be genuinely concerned about the Thalmor and honestly love his homeland, but so does Free-Winter - who, you'll notice, makes the abolition of the dunmer segregation the very first thing he does as Jarl. The dark elves' entire nation has been wiped out; where are they supposed to go? Back to their smoking ruin because Ulfric can't handle seeing someone of a different race in his Nord Pleasantville? Ulfric's whole schtick left such a bad taste in my mouth. The parallels with the troubles real-world immigrants face are like a huge neon sign hanging above Windhelm's gates.

Wow, that turned out more serious than I thought. To summarise; I don't think the Stormcloaks are unsympathetic in their rebellion in general, particularly with the religious freedom stuff. But Ulfric himself, and those that think like him, make it into a xenophobic power-driven witch hunt.

Quick couple of points.

As far as I know, Black Marsh remains independent of Imperial and Thalmor forces and is currently neutral (?).

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War
And yes, before you mention it yourself, I know that the author of this book is an imperial. I happen to agree with his arguments; just imagine how much worse Skyrim would have rebelled had Talos been forsaken without a fight. As it were, the abandoning of his worship was a bitter concession meant to buy time to heal wounds. Two entire legions were destroyed, all cities in Cyrodiil except for Bruma, including the Imperial city, were sacked, and the Third Empire had its worst military defeat in history. A (albeit temporary) peace was absoutely vital for the continuiing existence of Cyrodiil. In comparison, Skyrim barely suffered at all. (That said, I'd probably agree that the terms of ceasefire were still too harsh, given the losses of the Thalmor forces; personally, I would have pushed for a much fairer agreement, specifically without the cession of Hammerfell.)

Regarding Hammerfell: Hammerfell only resisted Aldmeri annexation because the brunt of Thalmor forces had been destroyed against Imperial Legions during the Great war (specifically, in the Battle of the Red Ring, circa 4E175). Had Hammerfell faced the Thalmor occupying forces at their initial strength, before they had been broken by the defenses and counterattacks of multiple Legions, surely they would have fallen, just as Cyrodiil itself fell. Their defense against the remnants of the Aldmeri incursion is certainly commendable, but keep into account that they were fighting against forces that had been incredibly weakened in Cyrodiil at the expense of Imperial, Nord and Breton bloodshed, and that Imperial General Decianus, on having his Legate ordered back to Cyrodiil for Ring Road, left behind a strong core group of informal veterans that pushed Thalmor forces in Hammerfell under Lady Arennelya back across the Alik'r. Hammefell was not wholly abandoned, but, sadly, the Thalmor did succeed in estranging Hammerfell and Cyrodiil (two provinces which share an historic friendship) and are attempting to do exactly the same now with Skyrim.

As a final point, intelligence found in the Thalmor embassy throws serious doubt on Ulfric's character.

The brunt of Thalmor forces? Perhaps it was a good amount, but if memory serves me correctly the Aldmeri priority in the Great War was the conquest of Hammerfell. Their luck (highly due to the element of surprise) in Cyrodill led them to believe that the Empire was weaker than they thought. Thus, they put more focus into Cyrodiil. Hammerfell was not fighting 'the remnants of the Cyrodiil invasion force' they were fighting Lady Arannayela's Army, which was the main army that was to be used to conqeur Hammerfell and never fought in Cyrodiil. And yes, the Redguards were fighting along side Decainus's troops, but the ones he left behind were "invalids" not registered soldiers. I don't think that the bulk of his army consisted of invalids. They managed to drive Arannayela's (I find this name incredibly sixy) back through the Alik'r. We do not know if these invalids were fighting in Hammerfell's seperate war against the Dominion or if the returned to the homes with the end of the Great War. We do know that the whole of Hammerfell was fighting (before, they were consumed in a civil war) and that Arannyela's army, the largest Aldmeri army, didn't have the resources to continue fighting a war against an independant Hammerfell. In the end, they had to pull out.

At that point, the entire Cyrodillic Invasion force had been annihilated, and the main Aldmeri army was severly weakened.

This is what I think could've happened: If the Empire secretly renounced the WGC, and made a secret treaty with Hammerfell, and enforced a conscription in Skyrim and High Rock, they could've drove the Dominion out of Elsweyr (Khajiit don't care) and Valenwood (which could be heavily assisted by triggering an insurrection). This would drive the Dominion off of the mainland. I doubt they could conquest Summerset at the point, but the treaty could've been heavil re-negotiated. And remember, Men reproduce fast than Elves, the Empire would've been restored in strength much quicker than the Dominion.

Yes the Empire suffered, but the Dominion suffered more. Why else would they take so much interest in the Civil War in Skyrim, they want the Empire to be as weakened as possible.

Ugh. Please read up on lore if you're gonna talk about the Dunmer in Windhelm and the supposed "racism". Basically, the Ministry of Truth that hovered above Vivec City fell, and caused Red Mountain to erupt, which obliterated the whole of Morrowind. Then, thousands of Argonians poured into the remnants of Morrowind and began wholesale slaughtering every Dunmer survivor they could find. The Dunmer fled in terror in the only direction they could, Skyrim. Despite millenia of conflict and warfare with the Dunmer, the Nords were compassionate enough to not only give Solstheim (an island that used to be a source of much conflict between Skyrim and Morrowind) to the Dunmer as a new home, but also graciously granted the Dunmer free housing in Windhelm and other cities. The Dunmer and Argonians are kept seperate in Windhelm, in order to prevent a blood war in the city, a blood feud that would make IRL Blood vs Krypts look like an English tea party in comparison. And what do the Dunmer do? They [censored] and whine about how they have to live in a "ghetto", instead of making it better. They won't even help the Nords who helped them. Why should the Nords help the Dunmer any further, when the Dunmer won't even help themselves?

Here's something for you to think about, since you seem to think all Stormcloaks are racist. The Stormcloaks send a couple drunks to yell racial slurs at Dunmer late at night. The Imperials send Thalmor Death Squads to abduct you, torture you, and murder you. Who's worse?

Do not confuse the Thalmor agents with the Empire. Thalmor act on their own behalf, enforcing an Imperial decree they forced on the empire militarily. Yes, they are escorted by Imperial soldiers, but that does not mean the Empire is the driving force behind the unfortunate ban on Talos worship or the persecution of Talos worshippers. Just remember exactly how freely Talos was worshipped despite the WGC before Ulfric stirred things in Markath and got the Thalmor involved. The Thalmor are just as much the enemy of the Empire as they are of Talos worshippers. Take your own advice, and read up on lore.

Lol. I know the lore. She seems to think that Stormcloaks are the same thing as racists, i just turned it around on her. If they're all racist, then the Empire might as well be the Thalmor.

For the first part: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Decree_of_Monument

The dunmer are completely independent from all holds, and owe loyalty to no jarl. They have no obligation to fight for anyone or even pay taxes.

And can you provide some proof that the Empire uses the Thalmor?

This topic is beaten to death....

I'm well aware of the Decree of Monument. The Dunmer are not obligated to fight for the Nords, but neither were the Nords obligated to give the Dunmer Solstheim or allow them free housing. The Nords did it out of compassion, and practicality. While the Dunmer accept the Nord's generosity, they give the Nords nothing in return.

The comment about the Empire "sending Thalmor Death Squads" was not meant to be taken literally. If all the Stormcloaks are racist, and they send racist drunks to heckle the Grey Quarter late at night, then the Empire might as well be sending Thalmor Death Squads to abduct, torture and murder.


Too bad all of the Septims are dead then, and the Septim Empire already collapsed. This isn't the Septim Empire, this is the Mede Empire. Titus Mede I was a Colovian Warlord who played "King of the Hill" better than all the other contenders for the Ruby Throne of Cyrodiil, and proclaimed himself Emperor. He at least had some military genius. Titus Mede II though, is a completely weak-willed fop.

No it doesn't.

A little bit of history might help them as well:

Japanese security-intel operations in the Greater South-East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere; German security and intel activities in Vichy France, prior to the German takeover; US security-intel operations in SVN; and more recently, what is going on in Afghanistan.

All places where foreign interests to the home governments are conducting their own security-intel work in the interests of the external major power.

Whatever else he may be, Ulfric is no Ho Chi Minh.

I stopped reading the daily "Stormcloak or legion?" threads long ago, but did anybody notice that shortly after Skyrim came out (even before) by far most people were favorited the rebels whereas now, after some time and getting deeper into the game, the empire has gained a lot more sympathy?

It's ok, I'm very familiar with the lore, although thanks for taking the time to type all that out. I actually said quite specifically that I didn't think the Stormcloaks were racist as a whole, and that I sympathised with the movement in general - it's in the text you quoted above. I do think it's indisputable that Ulfric's xenophobic and has his own selfish agenda, though. It's pretty clear that's why Bethesda gave him his total opposite in Free-Winter; I thought that was a widely-known plot device. It's very easy to draw real-world parallels, which is why I mentioned the whole BNP thing. Lots of countries have a small but extremely vocal minority with a motto along the lines of "our country for so-and-so, keep those filthy foreigners out!"

Again, I reference the conversation you overhear between two all-for-Ulfric Nords and the dunmer woman when you first enter Windhelm. They bully her and accuse her of being a spy. When she speaks to you about it afterwards, she makes it very clear that this this kind of treatment is normal, that she has resigned herself to expect it, and that the dunmer in Windhelm are all treated this way - with at best wary suspicion, and at worst outright hostility. As for the segregation in Windhelm being on the basis of keeping them separate from the argonians; well, that doesn't make sense, honestly. There is no equivalent argonian ghetto - in fact, I don't recall seeing any argonians in Windhelm at all. The town of Riften quite happily accommodates both dunmer and argonians, and that's just as close to the border as Windhelm is.

Finally, if some of the dunmer in Windhelm are resentful, who can blame them? They live in a constant state of being segregated, looked down on, suspected of being Thalmor spies based on nothing but their race... Skyrim may have granted them a measure of amnesty, but the decisions made by the political powers-that-be don't necessarily translate to the every-person on the street. Honestly, relations on both sides would likely be hugely better if Ulfric set an example and started treating them like actual people instead of herding them into a segregated pen like suspicous animals and fanning the flames with his xenophobic rhetoric.

Yeah, the whole 'Dunmer hate the Argonians so they should be kept seperate' argument never made sense. I don't see other areas where Dunmer and Argonians live together having that many problems.

Brand-Shei and Madesi seem able to spend all day every day in a market together without killing eachother

Edit: in fact, reading up on Brand-Shei, apparently he was raised by argonians! I think the point here is that most of the refugees just want to get on with living, not perpetuating political feuds. They can't afford to do that. Most of them have nothing anyway.

you can believe what you want, Its pretty incomprehensible you think Ulfirc's not a racist to me.

If you do the peace treaty quest, no normal human could not see he is an utter IMO.

There are Argonians in Windhelm, and they are the actually segregated ones. The Grey Quarter is self-segregation. It's just an immigrant enclave that the authorities ignore and the native population shuns.

Does someone in the game actually say that they keep the Argonians out of the city to prevent them from clashing with the Dunmer? Because that could be taken as a real-world reference of using minorities as excuses for chauvinistic control.

I sided with the stormcloaks, after much deliberation, for a myriad of reasons. Among these is the fact that the Empire is declining. It has rapidly lost holdings and is facing an eminent collapse. If the Empire collapsed with control of Skyrim, it would plunge Skyrim into turmoil. People claim that Skyrim is stronger in the hands of the Empire, but the reason nations with imperialist tendencies become involved in the affairs of weaker nations is to exploit them and leech off of their wealth. This is hardly beneficial to Skyrim, and the Empire has become more of an onus, financially and martially, than a protector. As long as the Empire remains, fighting inside of Skyrim will rage on, weakening it to the encroaching Thalmor. The Thalmor also have the Empire under their thumb. They have already defeated the Empire, so further association with it is not going to help Skyrim gain liberty, but will rather merely postpone the date when the Thalmor decide to annex the cold land. The Nords will not rally under an Imperial flag, and merely the fact that the Nords are the majority makes there side the stronger side when it comes to holding off the Thalmor, seeing as the Empire is already defeated and its current garrison in Skyrim is laughable next to the Thalmor force, especially when it is pushed to its limit just to remain in control of the land. In addition, I felt obligated to choose a side, although it was difficult to do so, because as long as the Dovakhiin is not involved in the war, the bloodshed continues endlessly. Picking a side and tipping the war in that side's favor is necessary to return to stability and put at least a temporary end to the bloodshed, and fence sitting only furthers the death and keeps Skyrim in its state of greatest vulnerability to the Thalmor, as it is plunged into civil war. So in conclusion, it is better to choose either side than to remain dormant, but I believe the "right" side to choose is that of the Stormcloaks.

I did it and I don't think so. He's passionate, but Tullius can be dispassionate because he's just a hireling. It's all the same to him as long as he wins at the end of the day. He brings Ulfric's torturer, the real enemy, and insists she remains at the table. Even if he gets everything else he wants in the negotiation, he's not happy if you make Elenwen leave. So who's the real "utter"?

And I see no evidence that Ulfric is a racist. You know, evidence. Something he actually says or does. Show me that and I'll reconsider.

Do you see any other city with a large population of restless, unhappy nationalistic Dunmer?

Ulfric's solution to the social problems in his city is to put them on the backburner. You can criticize that, but the reason is because he's fighting a war on multiple fronts in which the empire is using the Dominion against him. He's got a few things on his mind. Solving the centuries old ethnic issues in his hold isn't one of them right now. It's not racism, it's priorities.

Before anyone points to Riften as some panacea, it is also a Stormcloak hold, and the in-game books about it indicate that they had a hard time absorbing a large population of refugees, too.

Except the race relations in Riften are a million times better than Windhelm simply because of the lack of segregation. You see it in the entirety of the town's social infrasctructure. It functions. (Ok... lets leave out the whole corrupt organised crime thing for a moment.) Everyone trades civilly together in the marketplace; people drink at the same taverns. Ulfric's tactics are actually making the dark elf population a worse problem, not a better one. You're right that it's not his priority, but I somehow doubt it would be his priority even if the nation were in its 100th year of peace.