When I use smithing to upgrade my sword, it still looks and swings the same way, but that doesn't bother me, cause now I know everytime I swing it, it does more damage, and I feel better for it.. I'll be damned if they removed that feature, just to "streamline" it for the next game.

I'm not a magic user, but after reading this thread, I scratch my head at people who are defending the removal of something that could have resulted in DEEP customization for magic users.

Don't worry about how it worked in the last game, just imagine how it would have worked in this game.

for example: A rune spell that poisons, followed by a rune spell in the other hand that makes the target weaker to poisons, cast in a tiny little corridor... (unless those rune spells are already in the game, then disregard my example and think up your own.)

At this point, after seeing the magic in Skyrim, I would gladly pay for a spellmaking dlc.
To put the magic back into TES.

The "logical" reason is that I don't believe it would be very compatible with the dual casting system. I believe by creating customized spells, it would cause technical issues with the gameplay mechanics.

For instance, one exploit of the Spellmaking system that I despised, was the ability to fully level up one skill (let's say, Illusion), and mix your Master spell effects with the spell effects of another, untrained school, and be able to use high end spells of your untrained school.

Example:

If I am level 100 Illusion, I can cast a Master level On Target Frenzy spell. This means that the spell is now considered an Illusion spell, thus casting off of my Illusion skill.

Great, right?

But what it also means is that I can combine it with an Expert level Destruction spell. I am a Novice in Destruction.

But because the Illusion effect is greater, the spell works off of my Illusion skill, allowing me to cast powerful Destruction spells well above my level.

Now combine that with the current casting system, and dual casting perks, etc... and you have a mess on your hands.

There's also the fact that, specific spell effects have specific casting types. I.E.: Wards are a specialized, constant casting type. There are constant cast damage streams. Runes. "Hold to cast" spells like Detect Life. Instant casts like summons. Reanimations.

The Spellmaking would get all wonky, as certain spell types would be more customizable than others, leaving certain mages unable to access Spellmaking. For example, what would a Necromancer benefit from Spellmaking, when the reanimate spells are pretty specific in what they do?

You wouldn't be able to customize a bunch of different spells. How could you customize a Ward spell with a Rune cast? How could you combine a reanimate with Detect Life?

The previous system, because it was incredibly simple, made itself much more compatible to Spellmaking. This newer system is much more complex, so Spellmaking would have to walk a delicate tight rope to work properly. It wouldn't be fully customizable like versions past.

And if it's between evolved gameplay mechanics, or Spellmaking, well, I'll take the newer mechanics everytime out.

That's not to say Bethesda implemented the newer mechanics as well as they could. They left out tons of spell effects that should have been in. But out of the 2 choices, they made the right one.

I just don't see how Spellmaking would work with the current mechanics, without being incredibly toned down. Which people would be [censored]ing about that anyways.

Yes, there could be some cool things that could be done with Spellmaking, even with the current mechanics, and I am not against a Spellmaking feature in future DLC. But Spellmaking as we've known it would not work in Skyrim.

Maybe we should start playing like mages and not magic spammers.

A vampire can cast Absorb Health on me, but I can't cast it back. All Khajiit have Night Eye, but there's no equivalent spell. The effects are in the game, but not for a mage.

I've played two mages now in Skyrim, and a dozen or more in the previous games. Skyrim's magic is fun, and I still like playing a mage, but I can't help but feel the lack. Something is missing, and if you can't see it, I don't know what to say.

Spell Making is an integral part of TES PERIOD.

No it isn't. Maybe it was, but it isn't (anymore). Same can be said about stupid absorb fireball grinding in TES at Daggerfall times. It was integral, then found stupid (even if many players probably enjoyed this obvious leveling exploit) and removed. I don't say I agree with all changes, but this one made the game better imho. It put magic back into the game, as the spells are quite powerful out of the box (I don't agree on destruction being underpowered, we're just forced to combine it with other magic schools just like fighters have to combine skills as well), rather than power playing the spell creating system in order to have useful spells come out of it.

This is all your opinion. It still doesn't negate the fact that spellmaking should be an OPTION for those who wish to use it. As you would have the option not to or not to "abuse" certain mechanics.

I'll never get my head around those who think less choice/less player driven content is better in a sanbox, open world game

I have to agree, spell creation should be in there to mix things up a bit, playing a mage is boring IMO, not enough variety, again the warrior gets smithing, why no spell creation.
and lastly i believe if Oblivion or Skyrim was your first TES game, then you proably don't know what your on about.

That belief would be wrong, since both Morrowind and Oblivion were on console, with the latter even being designed for console, and both of those games had Spellmaking.

The "console simplification" argument is 100% false.

There was no such thing as "Variety" of magic in Oblivion. You basicly had 100 spells all with the same animation that did either x amount of damage at range/self/touch/aoe. The only difference between a level 1 and level 20 spell was how much damage it did. It still looked the same did the same thing just costed a bit more mana.

There really should be a cap on how low mana costs a spell school should have. I'd say 85% like armor rating and magic resist and then add an enchant to increase spell damage to compensate.

The "logical" reason is that I don't believe it would be very compatible with the dual casting system. I believe by creating customized spells, it would cause technical issues with the gameplay mechanics.

For instance, one exploit of the Spellmaking system that I despised, was the ability to fully level up one skill (let's say, Illusion), and mix your Master spell effects with the spell effects of another, untrained school, and be able to use high end spells of your untrained school.

Example:

If I am level 100 Illusion, I can cast a Master level On Target Frenzy spell. This means that the spell is now considered an Illusion spell, thus casting off of my Illusion skill.

Great, right?

But what it also means is that I can combine it with an Expert level Destruction spell. I am a Novice in Destruction.

But because the Illusion effect is greater, the spell works off of my Illusion skill, allowing me to cast powerful Destruction spells well above my level.

Now combine that with the current casting system, and dual casting perks, etc... and you have a mess on your hands.

There's also the fact that, specific spell effects have specific casting types. I.E.: Wards are a specialized, constant casting type. There are constant cast damage streams. Runes. "Hold to cast" spells like Detect Life. Instant casts like summons. Reanimations.

The Spellmaking would get all wonky, as certain spell types would be more customizable than others, leaving certain mages unable to access Spellmaking. For example, what would a Necromancer benefit from Spellmaking, when the reanimate spells are pretty specific in what they do?

You wouldn't be able to customize a bunch of different spells. How could you customize a Ward spell with a Rune cast? How could you combine a reanimate with Detect Life?

The previous system, because it was incredibly simple, made itself much more compatible to Spellmaking. This newer system is much more complex, so Spellmaking would have to walk a delicate tight rope to work properly. It wouldn't be fully customizable like versions past.

And if it's between evolved gameplay mechanics, or Spellmaking, well, I'll take the newer mechanics everytime out.

That's not to say Bethesda implemented the newer mechanics as well as they could. They left out tons of spell effects that should have been in. But out of the 2 choices, they made the right one.

I just don't see how Spellmaking would work with the current mechanics, without being incredibly toned down. Which people would be [censored]ing about that anyways.

Yes, there could be some cool things that could be done with Spellmaking, even with the current mechanics, and I am not against a Spellmaking feature in future DLC. But Spellmaking as we've known it would not work in Skyrim.

Listen close, child, and I shall tell you the ways to spot a fool:

Firstly, they are stuck in their ways. They repeat their actions, regardless of the result, expecting success.
Secondly, they believe that all they say and do is right and just, without once questioning their own beliefs and motivations.
Lastly, they they ignore the words of those who do not agree with them. Their hubris blinds them to the wisdom of others.

The people of the court call me a fool, child, and laugh at my jests as they rightly should. When they see me laughing with them they see it as proof of my supposed idiocy. But let me tell you the truth, boy: a jester laughs because the world is full of fools.

... I think you posted in the wrong thread.

Can the same be said now about Smithing?

No, I didn't. I see plenty of fools in this thread.

I agree, it is foolish to want less. Especially when spell creation added so much more.

Skyrims magic system is highly improved over previous games, and I think it was the right move. Spellcrafting is not needed with the variety they've given in Skyrim.

Sincerely,
An avid magic user in previous TES games.