I see your point, but I don't completely agree with it. Yes, if spells leveled with you, players might find spells more useful. However, the main thing that has upset many people is the removal of many spells/enchantments from previous games. Many players want to go the extra mile in customizing their magic-wielding character, but the removal of many useful and entertaining spells/enchantments makes it more difficult to make a unique character. Bringing back those spells/enchantments would make spell-making "less-needed," but combining that added variety with spell-making would solve everything. And besides, I don't even understand why spell-making was removed in the first place.

bring back spellmaking, even if its DLC you have to pay for.

SPELLMAKING IS AN ESSENTIAL ASPECT OF THE ELDER SCROLLS SERIES

Runes offer so much potential in spell creation. Like having healing runes placed for yourself or allies, or a slow rune to stop a charging enemy.

There is SOME variety. But, nothing like what previous titles had. Summons are rather nerfed, you can't just 'summon' a zombie, you have to have a nearby corpse to re-animate. A fair selection of spell effects are gone. Feather, chameleon, to name just two. You can't create custom spells. Everyone has the same. No possibility of combo spells. No "weakness to fire" on your fireballs. Etc. The magic system in skyrim is LESS than what it was in previous games, and in this case, it is NOT better. In Oblivion, you could play a dedicated un-armored spell caster, and actually expect to have a viable character. (and not whack your companions dead with the higher level AoE spells, which is about your only choice for quick kills.)

New restrictions on what enchantments you can put on which items. Only one magic ring. Fewer armor pieces to enchant. (a continuing trend in ES games....... significantly fewer 'clothing/armor' slots than morrowind.)

Some folks think 'it's fine', I would bet a good majority of players that actually have some experience with the older games, don't think it is all it is cracked up to be. Some of the mechanics are neat, and yeah, I like those, but, nothing they added would PRECLUDE the option of making your own. Maybe I want a flamethrower that does 20 points per second? Or a Fire Rune that does 200 points, in an AoE. None of which I can do with the current system.

Yes, modders will fix this. Thank the Nine. Erm.... Eight...... Whatever.

i like this i dont mind the lack of spell creation so much as lack of variety if they either added upgraded flame spells ect... or gave a spell crafting option for ourselves it would help but more spell types would be nice and prefferred to just a custom spell option

with that said i like skyrims system far more than the past few games dont know why everyone acts as if it totally svcks it just needs new content.

I agree with the OP. A warrior etc.. can Smith their weapon to make it different, a Mage should be able to create their own spells to make them different.

Spell creation is the backbone of the magic system in The Elder Scrolls.

Without it magic is crippled, we cannot customize our characters the way we choose for them to be.

i feel that they removed it because of the spell creator in oblivion where every hand made spell had like 5 effects but graphically came down to a red, blue or whatever colored ball or hand. if they were to have done that with skyrim, the spell effects, while amazing, would have been to much graphically for the designer and they would have had to have made at least 300 different spell looks for the various combinations of spells. while i would obviously love that, i would settle for single effect spells that i can custom make so i could have a flamethrower do more damage at level 61 or so on instead of spamming incinerate.

edit: i would also like the return of some of the spells from oblivion like water walk and open locks...

Firing is too good for them.


QFT.

Unfortunately I think Bethesda removed spellmaking to keep magic under powered. Do you think Bethesda would cut magic so thoroughly and then let that work be undone with spellmaking? Magic was nerfed because Shouts risked playing second fiddle or even being outright ignored if Skyrim had a strong magic system. With Shouts being central to the plot of Dovahkiin, Bethesda could not allow magic to be powerful, otherwise the whole story of the MQ wouldn't be reflected in the game.

So Bethesda designed the gameplay mechanic of magic around the story, ignoring basic rules of design such as balance* and resulting in a completely unsatisfying experience for the followers of a very popular subset of the RPG genre.

[*Don't try to convince me Bethesda ever focused on balancing Magic for the game, my mage drop out only needs to look at the 2751 damage she inflicts with her dagger to know that you're full of it.]

The problem is not the variety. The problem is that spells don't scale. Yes, I have runes and flamethrower spells but they become USELESS at certain levels. The system is fine, the new animations are awsome. They just need to fix scaling (or simply add spellmaking).

They could have had the same spell types with varying levels of power for purchase like in the older games, and we should also have the old spell types that was removed and spell creation for customizations sake.

That belief would be wrong, since both Morrowind and Oblivion were on console, with the latter even being designed for console, and both of those games had Spellmaking.

The "console simplification" argument is 100% false.

I agree with you on that.

There is no logical reason for the lack of spell creation.

^This

However I would like it back just in case one year I decide to use it.

No, it's not. It might have been one of your favorite aspects (as it was one of mine) but it is in no way "essential".

You'd be better off asking all of those people that whined that it made their single player game overpowered...

The "logical" reason is that I don't believe it would be very compatible with the dual casting system. I believe by creating customized spells, it would cause technical issues with the gameplay mechanics.

For instance, one exploit of the Spellmaking system that I despised, was the ability to fully level up one skill (let's say, Illusion), and mix your Master spell effects with the spell effects of another, untrained school, and be able to use high end spells of your untrained school.

Example:

If I am level 100 Illusion, I can cast a Master level On Target Frenzy spell. This means that the spell is now considered an Illusion spell, thus casting off of my Illusion skill.

Great, right?

But what it also means is that I can combine it with an Expert level Destruction spell. I am a Novice in Destruction.

But because the Illusion effect is greater, the spell works off of my Illusion skill, allowing me to cast powerful Destruction spells well above my level.

Now combine that with the current casting system, and dual casting perks, etc... and you have a mess on your hands.

There's also the fact that, specific spell effects have specific casting types. I.E.: Wards are a specialized, constant casting type. There are constant cast damage streams. Runes. "Hold to cast" spells like Detect Life. Instant casts like summons. Reanimations.

The Spellmaking would get all wonky, as certain spell types would be more customizable than others, leaving certain mages unable to access Spellmaking. For example, what would a Necromancer benefit from Spellmaking, when the reanimate spells are pretty specific in what they do?

You wouldn't be able to customize a bunch of different spells. How could you customize a Ward spell with a Rune cast? How could you combine a reanimate with Detect Life?

The previous system, because it was incredibly simple, made itself much more compatible to Spellmaking. This newer system is much more complex, so Spellmaking would have to walk a delicate tight rope to work properly. It wouldn't be fully customizable like versions past.

And if it's between evolved gameplay mechanics, or Spellmaking, well, I'll take the newer mechanics everytime out.

That's not to say Bethesda implemented the newer mechanics as well as they could. They left out tons of spell effects that should have been in. But out of the 2 choices, they made the right one.

I just don't see how Spellmaking would work with the current mechanics, without being incredibly toned down. Which people would be [censored]ing about that anyways.

Yes, there could be some cool things that could be done with Spellmaking, even with the current mechanics, and I am not against a Spellmaking feature in future DLC. But Spellmaking as we've known it would not work in Skyrim.

There was no such thing as "Variety" of magic in Oblivion. You basicly had 100 spells all with the same animation that did either x amount of damage at range/self/touch/aoe. The only difference between a level 1 and level 20 spell was how much damage it did. It still looked the same did the same thing just costed a bit more mana.

There really should be a cap on how low mana costs a spell school should have. I'd say 85% like armor rating and magic resist and then add an enchant to increase spell damage to compensate.

pretty much this.

This could be a distinct possibility but they certainly didn't tell US.

+1

I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to make purchasing it a neccessity in order to even be able to use spellmaking like they did with horse barding (armor) in Oblivion. You could buy a horse in the game but you could not partake of any of the armor mods UNLESS you brought the dlc.

Personally I have been for bringing back Spell Creation this whole time...But, this is the first time I have read someonelay out a well thought out counter, and that should be recognized. Cheers.

That said I can see what your saying, and it makes a lot of sense. Yet, there is a lot of stuff missing that could have made UP for the magic system that was left out.

New casting options were added, there is a better focus on strategy for mages... it's an interesting deviation from the norm.

That said, we have still lost a LOT... that could have been made up for the loss of spell creation, yet wasn't included.

I really think that Magic mods will quickly overpopulate modding sites, because there is so many directions we could have been provided yet weren't. Before I continue on that though, I don't think Bethesda put anything to gather poorly. Everything they put into Skyrim was thought out and for the most part appreciated. And, often, the more is better (Which is integral to the arguement for Magic creation) isn't always true.

The issue here is that for a game that is so devoted to making an immersive working world... the removal of something like this, seems counter to their goals. It's not like, no one makes spells, you get spells from that Cat in the College of Winterhold, and he says: "Oh try out these spells I have made." Why can't he do it, but we can't?

Also, going back to the: Well there are new types of spells you can cast, liek Runes and whatnot... yes, that is true, but 64 is a pathetic number of spells, when spaced out over as many schools of magic as it is, and your only left with a couple of chocies at level of how you can do something. Destruction levels as follows: Flame-thrower, projectile flame ball, projectile explosive flame ball, flame cloak. Then there are alternatives for Frost and Lightning. This is rather standard, but thats it. For a SCHOOL OF MAGIC, that seems rather... limited. What about some sort of destruction magic that uses streams of air to slice stuff up? What about pure energy of some flavor that disintegrates? What about elemental combinations like a wall of air that shoves you back, intensifying inner heat to make you combust, draw out all the water from your body to dessicate you? All of these things could have varying strengths from: A mild annoyance, to life threatening. What about pure magical energy instead of just elemental?

There is variety, but there isn't choice. if there were many more options for spells or effects of spells, I for one would forget about Spell making, like I did Attribute points.

Here is something else, even if you didn't have mad variety: Why not have more combinations of magic? If I cast a flamethrower and palpatine fingers at the same time... Well then people are effected by ligthning and fire. Thats boring. What about if I cast a summoned boulder at someone, and use a fireball at the same time? Two seperate spells again, wow again boring.

now, what if I were to combine fire with boulder and throw a fireball weight of 75lbs at someone's chest? That is awesome.

yes, I know I am saying: "What if we added stuff from the game Magicka into Skyrim" but why the hell not? Why the heck didn't we at least take SOME directions from that game's system? if we're going to loose spell making and variety of effects, why can't we have combination effects or counters... or SOMETHING like that?


The point I'm trying to get to here, is that even with the new system... there is SO MUCH MORE they could have made out of it, but didn't. They could have made it freaking amazing, but instead it is... Good, but still a shadow of what it could be. I would rather magic creation copy and pasted with no alteration out of Oblivion (Which was inferior to most other systems IMO) than what they have now!

New system MAIN con:

You're basically stuck using high level spells,since the beginning ones don't scale and can't be changed

Old system MAIN con:

MAgic was pretty much limited to "alright, so I'll cast the same spell as before, BUT, I did "intense studies" in order to make the ball GREEN and paralyse my enemy (for 1 second...)


Basically, both systems are SERIOUSLY flawed.

I don't ask for complete spellmaking, that was just a lame excuse for the svckish spells in the default game. I'll only ask for SOME way to modify the basic values. You know, make that flamethrower some more than a level 1-2 spell...

OOOORRRR

make them [censored] scale!




Is it SERIOUSLY THAT [censored] hard to code?

Spell Making is an integral part of TES PERIOD. For them to remove it shows that no one on the Dev Team have any idea of what TES should include.

My mage doesn't feel like a mage without it. I hate having to buy spells from everyone else instead of being able to make my own when I'm the freaking Arch-Mage.